Westministenders: Johnson defends his President whilst we try to defend Britain

[RedToothBrush]

Theresa and Donald
Sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
First come Brexit
Then comes the Ban
Then comes the
Removal of Human Rights
… Damn

(Shamelessly stolen from a protest sign)

A couple of weeks ago people were still asking why we were talking about Trump on a Brexit thread. I think the answer has made itself all together too apparent.

What is happening in the US is not going to stop. It’s not going to get any better any time soon. The situation is grave with suggestions there has been a coup. What happens next is not going to be pretty. American institutions are struggling. The rule of law has been undermined. We are not talking about a developing country. We are talking about the country which has stood for freedom and democracy.

Our leadership looks weak in the face of this. We look like we are not only appeasing but endorsing. For what? A trade deal that he could revoke in 30 days?

We have but one question. How many of our ‘British Values’ will have to be sacrifice for the special relationship?

Make no bones about this: Cosying up to Trump threatens our national security. It threatens our democracy. It ruins what little moral authority we have left. It threatens our ties with Europe who we DO still need to have a relationship even if we are outside the EU. This is not world leadership. This is appeasement. This is cowardly weak and downright desperate.

Let us also not forget ‘Good old Boris’ pretending to be Churchill and calling the EU Nazis and Hitler during the Referendum and on several occasions since. He has now had the bare faced audicity to stand in the House of Commons and call MPs out repeatedly for ‘trivalising the holocaust’ or for making comparisons with the 1930s when they saying they have been told this by survivors of the holocaust. It is SHAMEFUL. I also note how many times Johnson referred to Trump being democratically elected as if this makes all the difference and he can’t possibly be a dictator if elected.

Why do they want to use the parallel themselves and HATE it when its used for things they use? Fascists hate being pointed out as fascists.

What would happen if you put it to the public? You have a choice, The EU or Trump? What would they say. At its most basic this is what Brexit is now. You can not hide it or disguise it any longer.

Get used to this. Be prepared to protest, to keep challenging, to keep calling things as they are. Fatigue might set in, but we need to keep on. This is for the long haul.

Today the a50 Bill starts in parliament. It’s not looking good, as it looks like MPs will completely fail in their DUTY to hold the government to account and will not have the balls to add amendments to the bill.

If it passes without any, get worried. It is not just about the EU.

It never was.

It's about more than paying the 2%:
What is concerning is the increasing demands of the US on Europe for wars that the US chooses to start outside the NATO area.

POTUS Johnson was furious when Harold Wilson refused to send UK trrops to VietNam and did threaten not to defend the UK.
However, with the USSR being the US mortal enemy, that threat wasn't so likely.

The fall of the USSR was a gamechanger - the US feels far less threatened by Russia.
btw, that's also when globalisation and unfettered capitalism took off - no communist threat meant no need to buy off Western workers with decent wages and a welfare state

So, when Germany & France opposed the Iraq war and refused to believe in Hussein's WMDs threatening them, many US politicians made far more menacing noises about not coming to Europe's rescue again.

Trump may tantrum out of NATO if Europe won't support his wars - maybe Iraq again for the oil he wants ?
In that case, Europe either forms a military alliance itself, rNATO ? or gives up and joins a Putin bloc, USSR Mk II

Now pattern of NI questions from all on how the f do you guarantee a soft border, and 'common travel area'.
It is going to wreck NI economy too.
54% of exports from NI to EU.
How are exports protected?
Answer "It will be successful".

The Home Office response was: ‘How dare you even question our right to this information. This is data that belongs to the public. It is paid for by the taxpayer. We should use it for public policy’ ...

It's easy for me to say, but I wish someone would stand up to the Home Office threats and say, 'Take it to Downing Street if you wish, my duty is to my patients and not to the Home Office.'

Uk Military spending as part of Total Budget
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/ukdefenceespending30.htmll_

Where the military spend goes_
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentt_data/file/561135/UKDefenceeinNumberss2016-revised.pdf

It is truly chilling, Peregrina , the BMA should have been in on this one, and objected on behalf of doctors and medics, but in the war on tourists as Bush used to call it, it's impossible to object without being called a 'traitor'

Mother

I would love to have Kenneth Clarke as my MP even as a conservative. I am in a leave constituency with a leave MP and even if a Progressive Alliance stood in the next GE here an amoeba would probably still win for the Conservatives with UKIP coming second.

MPs should neither follow the referendum, nor follow letter campaigns
They should use both as part of the information on which they make their best judgement what to do

I'm sure that Murdoch, Dacre, Banks, Farage, Nuttall & co could win a hanging referendum.
I would still demand that MPs use their judgement and morality, as well as considering what voters wish.

Ditto after say a referendum vote in favour of returning all 1st & 2nd generation immigrants to their supposed countries of origin (yes, that kind of vote is thinkable too, in certain circumstances)

Presume K Clarke isn't in twitter?
Is there an I love Ken hashtag?
He did start this one: accidentally!
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/05/bloodydifficultwoman-trends-as-women-respond-to-ken-clarkes-comm/

I'm genuinely baffled. Do you think MP's should not honour the result of the referendum and instead do what they are told by the people (many not even their constituents) bombarding them with letters. Why?

I expect MPs to do what is best for the country as a whole and not just blindly follow a line of but the people said. There's a large difference between accepting the result of a vote (by looking into it properly and coming up with plans to enact it) and pandering to the supposed minority in the country.

I'll caveat that by saying if your constituency is going to get royally screwed in the course of what's good for the country then they should stand against things of course, but that again shows a massive problem with remain MPs from remain areas blindly following the will of the people crap.

Peregrina
Hypothetically though would it have made things awkward for the individuals themselves dealing with the Home Office in relation to their own situations?

Mother
I think the problem the BMA have is one of a pick your battles choice otherwise they run the risk of supporter fatigue.

i am failing to understand the dichotomy opined on this thread where uk is a piddly little island, worth nothing, should stop gadding around the world behaving like it is an empire etc etc...yet its health service should be free for all citizens of the world. Doesn't the N stand for National?

Hypothetically though would it have made things awkward for the individuals themselves dealing with the Home Office in relation to their own situations?

Yes, it would, and they would have to be prepared to take the consequences, which is why I said, it was easy for me to say. One side of my family are Quakers and they did take a stand in the last war, and some did go to prison for the stance they took. My own father managed to avoid prison, rather to his surprise - he got an unconditional discharge after his Tribunal.

Interesting thoughts on NATO contributions. I agree with a lot of what you say on this Bigchoc but I think the converse view could be taken that if non-US countries made more of a contribution they would be more equal partners in decision making.

French involvement in Syria is an interesting juxtaposition to the Iraq war.

On Luxembourg, their GDP per head may be close to treble ours but their total population is approx 0.5 million. Also of note that a number of EU countries are not part of NATO. Some would find an EU army difficult due to neutrality history.

Peregrina

I have nothing but respect for that.

May says:
The NHS is not for sale and never will be.

Right, let's hold her to that.

i am failing to understand the dichotomy opined on this thread where uk is a piddly little island, worth nothing, should stop gadding around the world behaving like it is an empire etc etc...yet its health service should be free for all citizens of the world. Doesn't the N stand for National?

bored I don't recall anyone on here saying the NHS 'should be free for all citizens of the world'- That is just typical Leave rhetoric.

Generally Remainers want more than just platitudes about how great a nation we are. Whilst Leavers seem to be happy to just be told everything will be just dandy, remain, quite irritatingly, want to see evidence of how that will be the case.

‘NHS not for sale and it never will be.’

This quote from this session of PMQs.

Actions speak louder than words here though and the Conservatives in the last 2 years have signed the largest privatisations deals ever in NHS history.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-sell-out-tories-sign-largest-5323402

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/mar/12/nhs-agrees-largest-ever-privatisation-deal-to-tackle-backlog

mother

Seems we'll never know about that 'huge significance'

White paper to be issued tomorrow- that'll be interesting.

Did May just say:
"We condemn the coup"?
About Erdagun's coup?

Is she stating knowledge of complicity?

Whose coup was she condemning?