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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

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BuntyFigglesworthSpiffington · 29/01/2017 18:39

I suppose in a way Merkel's position in Germany may be strengthened by the drama in the US, and the UK. Everything seems so very chaotic that Germans are going to be looking to her for her trademark steely leadership.

Cailleach1 · 29/01/2017 18:39

BigChoc, the European Medicines Agency (EMA) was bullet point number 9 on the Japanese Government wish list. It is on page 4 of the link below.

www.mofa.go.jp/files/000185466.pdf

Quite a few pharma companies have their location in London because of the location there of the EMA. Lots of meetings held every week, hundreds of people travelling and staying in London. If you take HQ's of orgs as well, that is a lot of dosh. Buildings, employees money, ancillary employment, accommodation etc., etc..

There will be direct and indirect job losses. The financial cost is more than just the HQ. It will have impact on the economy across the board.

Medicines may not get approved as fast. Drug companies will probably target the bigger, more lucrative markets first. EU and the US for example. Regulation may have to be duplicated with consequential costs to the exchequer. Medicines manufactured in the UK will have to be retested on importation into the EU and there will have to be an importer with licence in the EU. Maybe regulatory standards can be given equivalence, but this probably won't be settled as part of article 50, so initially there is no easy set up and 3rd country arrangements may be only option.

There is a parliamentary select committee on bbc iplayer (health select committee, I think) and the impact of leaving EU is discussed. Jeremy Hunt is being questioned, if you can bear it. The government don't seem to have any clear idea on what will happen (maybe they are keeping it secret!) except they want the best possible deal for the UK. Of course this might not correspond with the best possible deal for the EU27 and they may say nein, non and no.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 18:58

The US joint chiefs would have warned Trump if his military plans went against the Geneva Convention.

BUT, don't count on the military to resist his orders:

They didn't when George W decided that the Geneva Convention didn't apply to Al Quaeda and other insurgents
This March 2016 article was warning voters against the mistaken belief that they could rely on the military not to carry out illegal orders:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-military-wouldnt-save-us-from-president-trumps-illegal-orders/2016/03/04/9ef8fd44-e0ea-11e5-846c-10191d1fc4ecstory.html?utmm_term=.7b710549a091

The Bush administration appointed their own people (as is usual) to the Justice Dept who declared the orders were legal.
They already laid the legal groundwork for Trump's plans:

They redefined torture to be only methods actually intended to cause the kind of “severe pain” generally associated with “death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body
function.”
Since US torture was to elicit information, this basically meant almost any method is legally ok, not torture, e.g. pulling out fingernails.

Several military chiefs, military lawyers and the highly respected Colin Powel (former joint Chiefs chair) objected - but they didn't resign or go public.
For really ugly torture in the secret "black sites", Bush and probably Trump would call in the CIA

Military & intelligence officers at all levels obeyed Bush / Romney orders because otherwise their careers would end.
They also knew that it was unlikely they would be charged in the future - at most only a few ordinary soldiers who photograph themselves will ever be sacrificed to save the rest.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 19:02

The US joint chiefs would have warned Trump if his military plans went against the Geneva Convention.

One big assumption there.

Were they even consulted?

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woman12345 · 29/01/2017 19:08

Comes to something when I'm worried that mad dog 'Mattis' is being sidelined!Shock BigChoc
I've been trying to find out too, how this was operated before, and what were the numbers. The green card ruling is unprecedented?

It's certainly a deliberate provocation and is working as an international rallying cry of racists and the nations and peoples he has insulted.
So the reaction can be countered with full martial law presumably.
Democrat web site is like a historical artefact already.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 19:08

Cailleach1 Belonging to all these EU agencies brings additional benefits of investment and good jobs, especially when the HQs are in the UK.
There are so many knock-on effects for the UK science base, R&D, associated industry....

May is driving the Hard Brexit bulldozer and doesn't care that she is rolling over and crushing valuable national assets

Only her party and her career matter.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 19:10

Damon Silvers @DamonSilvers
Attys at Dulles with a fed court order entitling them to see detainees told by CBP "it's not going to happen" Attys seeking contempt order

Philip Gourevitch @PGourevitch
Now what? If Judge grants contempt order & sends Federal Marshals against CBP & WH sides w/CBP in defiance—who/what defends Constitution?

Don't assume that normal protocol is being followed by anyone at this point. The CBP appear to have gone rogue.

Who is in control of the army? The Department of Defence are no longer on the National Security Council....

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 19:11

red My post may have been unclear: I think that's why he sidelined them - so that they wouldn't raise pesky points of international law & war crimes
He sidelines / silences / removes possible opposition before it can start

ManonLescaut · 29/01/2017 19:17

John Schindler @20committee**
I now have no doubt that Trump will cause a full-blown constitutional crisis. Bannon may actually want one. Be careful what you wish for...

There are apparently some NeoCon conspiracy types who subscribe to the idea that out of controlled or managed conflict comes power. (No idea if Bannon is one).

They seem to believe that managed use of conflict can be used for long term predetermined ends (rather than the random exercise of manipulative control to solve a problem in the short term.)

So is Trump & whoever is behind him just trying to control immigration or simply to create chaos in which he/they can seize more power?

If so, who the fuck is going to stop him?

ManonLescaut · 29/01/2017 19:19

I'm not sure where capturing Bin Laden and slinging him off a ship stands as regards the Geneva Convention for that matter...

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 19:20

It's extraordinary that Trump is just ignoring court decisions.
Once a country's leader refuses to be subject to the law, then that country is no longer a democracy, regardless of whether that leader was elected.

I'm surprised impeachment proceedings haven't started

iirc, after Nixon sacked the Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox, many Congress members called for impeachment, because this was viewed as stopping the legal process.

Tricky Dicky's bugging & dirty tricks are so much less important than what Trump has alreay done in his first week.

mathanxiety · 29/01/2017 19:21

(Wrt suits - spend a little time among male lawyers and the importance of finer details of suits and ties will become clear.)

ManonLescaut · 29/01/2017 19:24

It's extraordinary that Trump is just ignoring court decisions

I don't know that it is though, because - that may be the point. To establish his supremacy.

Is this the beginning of coup d'état? Or fuckwittage?

My head hurts.

ManonLescaut · 29/01/2017 19:25

He's already got control of the customs and border police no?

ManonLescaut · 29/01/2017 19:26

I just can't work out whether this is cock up or conspiracy.

Kaija · 29/01/2017 19:31

"There are apparently some NeoCon conspiracy types who subscribe to the idea that out of controlled or managed conflict comes power. (No idea if Bannon is one)."

I would say the answer is yes to that one:

"“Lenin,” he answered, “wanted to destroy the state, and that’s my goal too. I want to bring everything crashing down, and destroy all of today’s establishment.”"

www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/22/steve-bannon-trump-s-top-guy-told-me-he-was-a-leninist.html

“"Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That’s power. It only helps us when they—get it wrong. When they’re blind to who we are and what we’re doing,” Bannon said of his detractors who criticized the far-right, white nationalist movement that Breitbart and others have successfully rebranded as the alt-right."

www.salon.com/2016/11/18/dick-cheney-darth-vader-satan-that-is-power-steve-bannon-speaks-out-for-first-time-since-being-named-donald-trumps-top-white-house-adviser/

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 19:32

Citizen of Nowhere @sunnysingh_n6
Manchurian Candidate. Rogue security agency. Corrupt coterie of rich citizens. Foreign govt intervention. Saying it again: this is a coup
Reminder of this. Have been saying this since November 9th!
One of their first steps was gag order issued on various government agencies, starting of course with NPS. Muffling dissent is key! #coup
Intimidation of media (and specific journos) has been an ongoing feature of the Orange Dodo's campaign but that has stepped up since 20/1
In the initial stages of a soft coup, journalists and press are often left discombobulated and unable to cover the events with clarity.
There is disbelief and unwillingness to accept that the intimidation, incremental gagging, etc. And of course relentless regime propaganda
As such - and as has happened in US since last year - the press unwittingly/willingly colludes with the coup leaders by pushign propaganda
But that is merely the groundwork. But main steps have been taken since Nov. 9. Transition demanded return of US ambassadors by 20/1.
The Joint Chief of Staffs was removed yesterday from the National Security Committee. Again, important in the steps to a coup
A full list of steps taken since Jan 20th here:
docs.google.com/document/d/10PMC2_XtiHhMe84fcqII-zrI4nopBYt1-YRuQp7yk4M/mobilebasic
scroll down the list. USA journos would call this a coup elsewhere
Key elements remain the same: purging of inconvenient members of the bureaucracy while using more amenable parts of the state apparatus
The role of CBP in vigorously implementing #MuslimBan must be seen in this light. Regardless of legality, it has acted w unusual alacrity!
Next key step for completing a coup has taken place today: CBP+ DHS have decided to follow presidential EO rather than stay by federal court
The dismantling of the rule of law - and its subsequent replacement by a more amenable judiciary - is necessary for a coup to be successful
This has already begun. This is also why @GOP and the WH are so keen on rushing through a Supreme Court Of The US appointment (and blocked Obama's nominee)
Also necessary to not assume that @GOP is separate from WH. Most Republicans are at least willing to be silent if not actively collude
Again, a coup requires a tight coterie within the government but active albeit silent participation of others. In case of USA, it is @GOP
Also worth noting that a coup often impacts the opposition parties the same way as the press: baffles + confuses them. Freezes by disbelief
This means political parties in opposition attempt to behave as if they are in a 'normal' situation (see the Dems in USA right now) #coup
But a coup is NOT NORMAL. So first political opposition is frozen into inaction, then tries to negotiate, while being systemically smashed
Again, the point of a coup is to destroy all institutional structures of a democracy. That has already happened in just 10 days!
The key difference I see in case of #USA: this soft coup has been faster, brasher, more in-your-face than I have ever seen anywhere else
All this makes it a Thoroughly American Coup d' Etat.
There you go, pundits, you can now steal that phrase from me to run w/out attribution
Can only hope that speed/brashness of this coup will work against it. Quiet incremental steps go unnoticed: proverbial frog in boiling water
Instead, these steps have come as a shock to the system for many. And hopefully that means more USA folk can mobilise in #resistance
But be aware that your will need to resist on ALL FRONTS: street protests, legal action, lobbying politicians and business leaders
That means putting aside the luxury of differences in political opinions that democracy grants us all. I can only wish you good luck!
And I really do mean I wish you GOOD LUCK because the fall of US democracy to fascism will mean horrors for the entire planet.
End of thread. Be strong and keep the faith!

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 19:41

^ Hope the above makes sense to people.

We are starting to get too far down the road to see this stopping peacefully.

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woman12345 · 29/01/2017 19:56

Wish my family would read that red Wish everyone would.
Any one noticing that a lot of people are choosing not to see the giant stinky turd that's landed on our democracies and lives? Agree that it's a messy coup, but none are that tidy. It's the audacity that catches people off guard.

Americans know well the cynicism and Machiavellianism of capitalism so I hope they recognise and act on that.

They have had some great unions and notable actions and activists but what they don't know is the history of institutionalised collective action and social/ist democracies which we've been lucky enough to have here in yurp. They are doing a fine job with the airport protests and right now there is a big one in NY. But not surprisingly the democrats and opposition are like deer in the headlights.

The only thing these shits will understand is mass unionised collective action. General Strike from the top to the bottom, particularly including the police, (HA HA) but border staff, immigration officials etc.

And by the way, here too. No more signing shitty British values crap, spying on school children's nationality and home life, deporting students, separating families, accommodating and facilitating deportations and harassment, the list is endless, but workers at the front line on zero hours pay crap need to have the guts to say no. And unions have to step up now, before the gruesome North Korea type union legislation is brought in under president banks.

Strikes and refusal to implement immoral laws, would be understood.

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 19:59

Yes, the opposition seem baffled.
Yes the GOP need to act. But they have known this since November 9th.
Their silence is agreement?

SwedishEdith · 29/01/2017 20:14

"There are apparently some NeoCon conspiracy types who subscribe to the idea that out of controlled or managed conflict comes power."

Is this not the creative destruction stuff?

I think this tweet is very alarming but seems not to be discussed much. What, exactly, is that leading to?

Donald J. Trump ‏*@realDonaldTrump*

Christians in the Middle-East have been executed in large numbers. We cannot allow this horror to continue!

Cailleach1 · 29/01/2017 20:16

Two words from your post sum it up for me, Red. Disbelief. And frozen. How did this happen? Where were all the grown ups' on watch? And why is everyone still on the back foot and don't know how to deal with these people.

Even today Farage was ineffectively questioned by Andrew Neil. He is not pressurised to answer the question and quite comfortably ding dongs to what he wants to propagandise. Why is Farage getting so much unchallenged airtime on the BBC? It is rather like a free media soapbox for him. He is not even an MP. He doesn't seem to have ever worked on behalf of the UK, although dressing himself up as an uberBrit sans pareil. He had/has an agenda he wanted to campaign for. Using wages from MEP to maintain his upkeep. He didn't/doesn't bat for the UK in the EP. He doesn't offer to reimburse the UK taxpayer, although condemning UK money going to the EU. He seems to be in league with and give Trump and others with his views his foremost allegiance. Ironically, you could call him a without borders type for his tinderbox ideology.

My beef is that he is never exposed by sharing airtime with people who know their stuff and more importantly show up how he talks bull to bolster his propaganda. Is there an agenda where he is being protected or does he insist on having nobody who can challenge him on air? I guess it is the era where Penny Mordaunt was promoted despite baldy lying on TV.

SwedishEdith · 29/01/2017 20:17

NY Taxi Workers ‏*@NYTWA*

NO PICKUPS @ JFK Airport 6 PM to 7 PM today. Drivers stand in solidarity with thousands protesting inhumane & unconstitutional #MuslimBan.

ManonLescaut · 29/01/2017 20:17

I'd much rather this is a cock up than a coup.

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