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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

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Thread gallery
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whatwouldrondo · 29/01/2017 17:00

Mo seems to have brought home the truth to even the most diehard Brexiteer/ Trump will be fine / like Reagan people that I know. They are posting his words and signing the petition.... Let's hope it is the start of isolating those people who do not share the values of diversity, tolerance and freedom that up until a few months ago we could take for granted even from the Tories......

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 17:04

Certainly very different headlines in DT and DM than were being run during brexit campaign, ron

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 17:12

I still don't think the penny will drop.

I wish I did.

Brexit will still mean cosying up to Trump. What does that entail now? Anyone dare to hazard a guess?

Trump just screwed over May even if she supports him. I hope she realises this.

Protests tomorrow:
inews.co.uk/essentials/news/trump-muslim-ban-protests-around-uk-full-list-events/

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woman12345 · 29/01/2017 17:15

Or, as usual, when the penny does drop it's too fucking late.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 17:17

Tinkle tinkle little czar, Putin put you where you are

squoosh · 29/01/2017 17:18

Have only just read that Steve Bannon has been granted a permanent seat on the National Security Council whereas military chiefs will be permitted to attend meetings by invite only. That sounds like the most worrying development so far tbh.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 17:19

www.politico.com/story/2017/01/trump-refugees-234320
Trump doubles down on refugee ban

His administration also says green-card holders will not be caught in the net going forward but they still might be subject to extra vetting.

Because they aren't already

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 17:22

On Brexit & NI - SDLP & SNP

SDLP joined forces with the SNP - and not Labour - to table amendments to the Brexit Bill

SDLP leader Colum Eastwood said:
“Across these islands, parties and parliamentarians are coming together to call time on the British Government’s hard-Brexit juggernaut.
Theresa May is prepared to damn our economy and destroy the fragile political understanding on this island in her blind pursuit of a hard-Brexit.
It’s time the devolved administrations pushed back"

http://sdlp.ie/news/2017/sdlp-joins-forces-with-snp-to-table-amendment-to-british-government-hard-brexit-billl_//_

CeciledeVolanges · 29/01/2017 17:26

Blueeyeshadow popular sovereignty is only really a constitutional feature in Scotland.
Also I've been thinking the cognitive dissonance for Jeremy Corbyn, whipping his MPs to begin a course which will almost certainly lead to an executive dictatorship for the Tories and a reliance on Trump, whose policies he is condemning, must be pretty bad.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 17:27

Leaving these Organisations & what it means

The UK will leave the European Medical Association - whose HQ will move from London Sad

Leaving Euratom (¼ of its work was in the UK)
The UK will need to hire specialist staff to perform its safeguard functions in the UK:
inspecting British civil nuclear sites that generate power, fabricate fuel and manage waste.

The UK must also cover nuclear non-proliferation inspections and authorize the sale of nuclear material.

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 17:29

I suspect trotskyite insurgents in the labour party of wanting to provoke such gruesome right wingery to bring forward the glorious revolution.

Even sadder BigChoc that SDLP join with tartan tories (can I hide in your fallout shelter from pretty bird) than labour. Tragic.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 17:29

John Schindler @20committee
I now have no doubt that Trump will cause a full-blown constitutional crisis. Bannon may actually want one. Be careful what you wish for...

Yesterday's WH recasting of the NSC, letting Flynn+Bannon run it WITHOUT DoD+IC, really amounts to a coup, at least in #natsec terms.

I do not use the "c-word" casually. Congress needs to start asking questions RIGHT NOW, and #GOP must support that.

Also, DoD+IC need to prepare for illegal & unconstitutional orders soon to be emanating from Trump's KrazyKult NSC.

Trump's NSC will make life-or-death decisions 4 USA (& the planet) w/top military+intel leaders present only when Flynn+Bannon feel like it

Aaron Blake ‏*@AaronBlake*
So far, we're up to 9 Republicans opposing Trump's travel ban, 8 more expressing reservations

www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/29/heres-where-republicans-stand-on-president-trumps-controversial-travel-ban/?postshare=4061485708166008&tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.35eea5128e1f

This is LAST CHANCE saloon.

Blood is going to be shed soon, if not very careful.

Bad news is 5 Republicans clearly support Trump.

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woman12345 · 29/01/2017 17:31

Farage and Trump should have stood on a 'Dark Ages' platform, wrt science and constitutions.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 17:37

PIERS MORGAN has come out against Muslim Ban.

Remember that time when Johnson said we were all having a 'whinge-o-rama' over Trump.

Well here's a little reminder:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/11/boris-johnson-doom-and-gloom-donald-trump-nigel-farage-theresa-may
Boris Johnson calls for end to 'whinge-o-rama' over Donald Trump

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 17:40

John Schindler ‏*@20committee*

Only reason not to have top mil+intel in National SECURITY Council mtgs is b/c they'll say stuff you don't wanna hear.
You know, sane stuff.

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woman12345 · 29/01/2017 17:41

Scott Dworkin Retweeted
Scott Dworkin ‏*@funder* 2h2 hours ago
More
FBI COMPLAINT FILED ON STEVE BANNON FOR RECEIVING ILLEGAL CAMPAIGN PAYMENT ($1 million)

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 17:44

When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt.
(Leviticus 19:33-34)

Yes the Bible.

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 17:45

Always room for a good conversationalist, woman I have a cellar (very usual in Germany) which has several boxes of supplies < packrat >

Doomsday Clock is ticking

http://thebulletin.org/timelinee_
Bulletin of the Atomic Scientist

The doomsday clock is 2.5 mins away from midnight, which is the closest to Goodnight Vienna that it has been since 1953.

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 17:46

We are all refugees on this earth.

My local councillor with the postcards, deliberately worded them to appeal to MP's conscience.

Wonder if this horrendous number of collaborators could prompt them to action:

Bruce Bartlett ‏*@BruceBartlett* 3s4 seconds ago
More
270 congressional Republicans remain silent on The Leader's Muslim pogrom.

Pestilentialone · 29/01/2017 17:50

Has he found a way to quieten the judges yet?
They must be on his list.
It all feels like he has been taking tips from Erdogan, not a bad thing if your aim is dictatorship.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 18:03

He doesn't need to quieten the judges yet. The problem is not the law in this case. Its the fact no one is ENFORCING it.

If they do impeach Trump it is a lengthy process. Power passes to Pence. Who was at the signing of this EO. If he is also impeached power passes to Ryan. Who is in favour of the ban and supports it.

Who ENFORCES impeachment?

If Congress votes Sessions through and approves him, its GAME OVER.

Its been established that the Customs and Border Police are now operating effectively OUTSIDE the law and answer to Donald Trump.

Where do the police stand (Many unions were happy with him being elected as they want to be militarised)?

We know the FBI has Pro-Trump factions even if its not all pro-Trump.

Where do the army stand?

And more importantly, what will employees, 'just doing their job' do?

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 18:20

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/29/merkel-explains-geneva-refugee-convention-to-trump-in-phone-call?CMP=twt_gu
Merkel 'explains' Geneva refugee convention to Trump in phone call

Whitehouse omitted from summary of phonecall.

May get Johnson and Rudd to deal with if after saying she disagree with the ban IF it affects Brits.

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woman12345 · 29/01/2017 18:29

Merkel believes that there is a world, May and Trump don't.

Pestilentialone · 29/01/2017 18:32

Seems to be a BBC reporter checking how the ban is working.

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 18:35

Can't read it all because of the pay wall.
But it's the DT!
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/29/donald-trumps-immigration-bank-sign-west-losing-humanity/

Are they pleased or scared now that they have incited race riots?

Once you let this particular cat out of the bag............

The Romans had a point about patrician rule.