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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

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Thread gallery
19
MitzyLeFrouf · 29/01/2017 00:40

'I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night......'

My grandfather used to sing it.

Peregrina · 29/01/2017 00:42

Better a step down that some of the alternatives, I think. People with ability should be able to rise up again quickly.

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 00:43

SmileMitzy
Trudeau carries that baton on ( after a fashion)

squishysquirmy · 29/01/2017 00:45

We don't know that you are all appalled at the latest developments SemiPermanent. I now know that you are, but I also know that leavers are not a homogenous group. How could we possibly know how someone else feels without them telling us? Especially when several leavers post very positive things abut Trump?

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 00:46

Shaun King @shaunking
HUGE DEAL.

New Executive Order from Trump removes Director of National Intelligence & Joint Chiefs of Staff from National Security Council

Now WHY would you do that?

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woman12345 · 29/01/2017 00:47

Is this the dismantling of the state, you meant before?

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 00:53

Part of. The joint chiefs of staff are voices of reason and restraint. They are a check on the power of the president. Removing them increases power of executive.

Also joint chiefs of staff give advice on military matters.

Trump just signed an executive order to get a plan to deal with Isis together with in 30 days whilst getting rid of the most restrained and experienced voices at the same time.

He wants a plan within 30 days so he can do whatever he wants before someone can stop him.

Why?

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woman12345 · 29/01/2017 00:54

Owen Jones ‏*@OwenJones84* 17s18 seconds ago
More
Owen Jones Retweeted Owen Jones
Downing Street, Monday 7pm, protest the #MuslimBan and Theresa May's alliance with Trump. Details asap about demos across the country too.

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 00:55

Fucking Section 25 now, or something else. There are volunteers on the other thread to resolve it.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 00:57

Wes Streeting MP @wesstreeting
.@theresa_may Welcome back. While you were flying, one of your MPs said Trump ban applies to him. Rest of us asked you to find a backbone.

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 01:13

Adam Weinstein @AdamWeinstein

  1. Flynn has always wanted complete reign over US intel/natsec. And now he's taking the joint chiefs chairman off NSC for "time management."
If you're not terrified by Flynn's National Security Council, read this quote he gave the Intercept last year.

Flynn does not shy away from hyperbole. "There is no escape from this war" he writes "Do you want to be ruled by men who eagerly drink the blood of their dying enemies? Such questions are rarely asked. Yet if you read the publically available ISIS documents on their intentions, their is no doubt they are dead set on taking us over and drinking our blood".

The public line here - "time management" - presumes the US director of nat'l intel and joint chiefs chairman don't have a daily buy-in @ NSC
That's insane.
Watch closely how Flynn and Mattis operate. They're in competition for resources and allies right now.

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 01:17

A psycho POTUS with a cowardly GOP Congress (remember how they condemned his plans during the primaries ? They've swung into line now)

War
Trump may actually look for the opportunity of a short sharp war against conventional ME armed forces.
Pictures of 100s of burned out tanks & planes would be more dramatic than a few dead IS fighters.

Americans would rally round the flag, his ratings would soar, he'd look presidential and then have a victory parade in Washington - the military display he originally wanted for his inauguration.

So he may try to provoke an unpopular country
Or just pick somewhere and launch an air strike & naval cruise missiles, e.g. reduce Tehran to rubble

ISIS
Conventional methods won't bring the quick success Trump demands.
So, I fear either nukes (as in his campaign briefings) or something like the GBU-43/B (Massive Ordnance Air Blast) which is a huge thermobarbic bomb with a large kill zone.
Effects rather like a tactical nuke but without radiation.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 01:18

Above all Weinstein.

This is as important if not more important than the Muslim ban.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_T._Flynn

Flynn. Read about his 'retirement'.

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 01:20

Remember we just sold a bunch of war plans to Turkey...

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 01:23

Far right Dutch politician Geert Wilders tweeted:
"Well done @POTUS it's the only way to stay safe + free. I would do the same. Hope you'll add more Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia soon"

Maybe Marine Le Pen will join in too

Has Farage commented on his special friend's first week ? He's not usually quiet for long

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 01:24

Smoke and mirrors. Trump likes the side show whilst he hides something else.

What if Muslim ban has a purpose but also because it will stir things up is also a useful sideshow?

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 01:28

Also where does NATO fit into this? Or British military and intelligence?

And with that joyous note I'm off to bed.

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 01:31

You're either with us or against us ?

US Ambassador to the UN:

"For those that don't have our back, we're taking names"

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/envoy-nikki-haley-names-170127210217935.html

PausingFlatly · 29/01/2017 01:35

The investigative reporter Greg Palast used to talk about the "IMF riot" as a political strategy (back in the 1990s).

Step one for moving a country to non-democratic rule would be to create a crisis that affected as many ordinary people as possible: eg treble the cost of an essential like cooking oil or coal. Usually blaming the IMF.

Step two: hold hands up in surprise at rioting in the streets.

Step three: bring in military/authoritarian control to "bring back law and order".

Step four: make all the political and economic changes you want - you're in charge now.

He called the unrest stage "IMF riots," because of the connection to introduction of neoliberal Chicago School economic strategies. And it will therefore be a familiar technique to the disaster opportunists - who of course need a disaster.

This seems to tie in uncomfortably well with what you're saying, Red.

SwedishEdith · 29/01/2017 01:41

Just found the Rogue POTUS Staff Twitter account. Genuine? Who knows?

Rogue POTUS Staff ‏**@RoguePOTUSStaff**

Assessment is that a post Brexit PM May needs POTUS more than POTUS needs her. "She does what we want, or we go somewhere else."

Rogue POTUS Staff ‏**@RoguePOTUSStaff** 10h10 hours ago

POTUS was dismissive of PM May. "I hope she'll like us, but she doesn't have much to offer."

SwedishEdith · 29/01/2017 01:44

Meanwhile, in the Telegraph

Mystery death of ex-KGB chief linked to MI6 spy's dossier on Donald Trump. Louise Mensch did lots of links to this a few weeks ago.

Figmentofmyimagination · 29/01/2017 04:22

This is getting very frightening.

PeasandTrees · 29/01/2017 05:22

Just wanted to say thank you for these intelligent and informative threads. They have helped so much to condense my thinking and piece together the wider (terrifying) picture - have just felt confident enough in my thoughts to have written to my MP for the first time ever...first of many now! Grin

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 07:18

Court order in place to block EO. Doesn't cover those held in detention now though.

Bannon unlike joint chiefs of staff IS mysteriously on NSC.

Erodgan wore more than 5 badge in photos for Mays visit. This is reference to un security council. UK no longer respected.

Rumours grow about what's actually going on at wh. Is trump being blackmailed.

He has paintings of President Andrew Johnson everywhere. He was impeached then acquitted. Regarded as one of the worst ever Presidents.

Why have pictures of him of all Presidents?

Only observer carried Muslim ban on front page. America's shame is our shame.

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 07:25

Just to clarify court order bans deportation of any one on us soil with valid visa. Thousands still stranded though.

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