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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

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BestIsWest · 28/01/2017 23:29

Agree Math May's clothing is a deliberate choice. As is the coy 'opposites attract' sexualisation. A great disservice to women.

Peregrina · 28/01/2017 23:30

All suits are not equal even though at a quick glance they are pretty similar.

Allow us a moment of levity, after the hideous news of today. At a meeting of fairly senior civil servants, 17 of the men were wearing the same style of M & S suit. Not sure exactly what that told us, except they were boring and conformist.

DH is talking of losing weight and getting some good quality clothes for the new man he will become.

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 23:31

Mana Yegani, an immigration lawyer in Houston, said she had heard of several people with Iranian passports who were barred from US-bound flights leaving Amsterdam and Frankfurt. A number of other passengers were removed by security personnel just before take-off from the European cities.
“The agents said specifically that they had word from the US that those passengers would not be allowed to travel,” Yegani said.

Yegani had also been passed details of a Sudanese woman, a Stanford University PhD student with a US green card, who flew into New York at 11pm on Friday and was detained and interrogated until about 5am on Saturday, when she was released.
“The checked her social media accounts, went through her phone, asked her about her politics, it was very intimidating,” Yegani said. “This really undermines core American values and the US constitution. I would not be surprised if the legal challenges to this end up at the supreme court.”

Masih Alinejad, an Iranian journalist living in exile in the US, said Trump’s orders threatened to strip people from their families and homes.
“The Islamic Republic has built a wall around many exiled journalists like us,” she said. “We neither have the right to return to Iran, nor do we enjoy the privilege of seeing our parents.”
Alinejad said that the order now bars her from her son, a university student in the UK. “Trump has built a wall between me and my son. We are both in limbo. He cannot come and see me and nor can I go to the UK to visit him,” she said.
“If I were to go and visit him, I would be deprived of the right to come back to the United States. It would be the end of my life in the United States

BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 23:34

I would infinitely prefer PM James Hacker and Cabinet Sec Sir Humphrey Appleby
While I'm spinning my orayer wheel, the US should replace this psycho crew by the entire cast of the West Wing

RedToothBrush · 28/01/2017 23:35

How likely is war? Former British commander says likely to independent. Chinese military official says likely today too.

Trump just asked for a plan in thirty days to defeat Isis.

Would you like to work out that plan might entail that hasn't already been thought of?

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BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 23:36

Let's hear it for a real leader < loud cheers >

Trudeau reacted to Trump’s ban of Muslims by tweeting:

“To those fleeing persecution, terror & war, Canadians will welcome you, regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength #WelcomeToCanada.”

Even though 75% of Canada's exports go to the US

His tweet quickly received more than 150k likes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/theamericas/pm-trudeau-says-canada-will-take-refugees/2017/01/28/bb270054-e5aa-11e6-a419-eefe8eff08355_story.html?utm_term=.9188e3029632

“The Prime Minister is looking forward to discussing the successes of Canada’s immigration and refugee policy with the President when they next speak”

RedToothBrush · 28/01/2017 23:37

Lawrence Tribe @tribelaw
Trump's promise to prioritize Christian over Muslim refugees when the 90-day ban lifts violates the Religion Clauses of our First Amendment.

Steve peers @stevepeers
It will equally violate the non-discrimination clause in Article 3 of the UN Refugee Convention

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BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 23:42

red My worry about Trump's plan for the ME is that during the campaign he was giving military briefings and he kept asking why the US didn't use nukes, since the other side didn't have them.
The professional military briefers were reportedly shocked that they couldn't convince him why not.

He doesn't need Congressional approval to launch nukes either; or even draft an executive order.
He just types in a code.
He likes simple, drastic solutions
He doesn't care about collateral damage

BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 23:43

given military briefings

Peregrina · 28/01/2017 23:46

This is getting very scary.

Headfullofdreams · 28/01/2017 23:53

Fuck me, we are doomed. The Trump fan club on the Brexit Arms thread have all gone quiet, I wonder why!

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 00:02

There are a bunch of us military in Iraq. who may or may not be able to leave due to Iraqi retailation over Muslim ban.

If you were Iraq with him going on about a plan to defeat Isis would you allow americans in? That includes relief, reinforcements and evacuation?

Or would you put a ban in. In the hope that might also make him think twice about nukes.

I'm scared.

I've had a massive argument with DH tonight over it all. I don't care. I'm past him shrugging it all off and not listening.

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woman12345 · 29/01/2017 00:06

Live stream at JFK
m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=377076222650797&id=193132664378488

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 00:08

Brendan Cox's @MrBrendanCox
The only thing necessary for the triump of evil is for good men (and women) to do (and say) nothing.

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woman12345 · 29/01/2017 00:08

University Of Michigan Defies Trump By Refusing To Release Immigration Status Of Students
Shame of it that UK universities colluded with immigration authorities.

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 00:09

Amen to that red
Have you seen the live stream.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 00:17

The problem with the protests is what happens tomorrow? What happens to people stranded across the world? What happens to people like my friends?

Protests are not enough.

Not when the next executive order comes. And the next.

Bannon has stated himself to be a Leninist. He wants to destroy the state. All of it. All its institutions. He has a plan. He is just carrying it out.

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squishysquirmy · 29/01/2017 00:27

More than just protests are needed. Trump has no incentive to take notice of those, and he will relish any disorder or riots. What is needed is elected politicians to actually DO something. In the US that means demonstrating some of those checks and balances they're so proud of.
In the UK it means, for starters, condemning the action. wtf is the point of a so called "special relationship" if May is too cowardly to even voice her opinion?

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 00:28

Press Association @PA
#BREAKING Theresa May does "not agree" with Donald Trump's refugee ban and will make representations if it hits Britons, Downing Street said

Spot the problem with the above statement.

If.

And what about other nationals. Would it be ok then?

Appeaser May.

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woman12345 · 29/01/2017 00:28

I know red, concerned about all of them. And really concerned that so many will agree with the ban.

I wonder if seeing that Mo Farrow is banned might help egits understand.

All we can hope for is that MPs listen, here and that Google,FB the military, international business will speak up and say they cannot operate under these conditions. And the French and the Germans.

Are your friends just staying put?

Jews are also, apparently getting caught up in this, fucking terrifying.

Just got to do what we can do.

You know more about these freaks than I do.

Expect the worst and hope for the best. And organise. Michael Moore and many others got this JFK one up in minutes.

I rather nervously, knocked on a door which had had a remain poster in my town to give a postcard to the MP to a stranger. And rather wonderfully, he was OK with it, and I gave him two.

You never know it might be those two postcards which make him vote the right way.Smile

US activists are at it, and it's worked before.

Keep the faith!

SwedishEdith · 29/01/2017 00:31

PM 'does not agree' with US refugee ban

Bit late really.

Peregrina · 29/01/2017 00:38

Her statement is not good enough. We must get the Appeaser May tag, or Appeaser Theresa tag to stick.

More Tory MPs speaking out will be good.

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 00:38

Does anyone know the folk song Joe Hill? There's a great bit of footage of Paul Robeson singing it to miners in Lanarkshire in the 1940s. He supported the striking Welsh miners, and of course was hauled over by the Mc Carthy trials.

This is more visceral, but I always try to take the long view about struggles, and know that it's happened before, and you just got to keep at the education organisation and agitation. And walking round a little town with postcards and leaflets!

SemiPermanent · 29/01/2017 00:39

The Trump fan club on the Brexit Arms thread have all gone quiet, I wonder why!

Are you for real? Hmm
There is no 'fan club' - just some light hearted messing about re some of his more ridiculous carryings on.

Do you really think Leavers are so vacuous & stupid that we aren't also appalled at the latest developments?
Ffs.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 00:40

My friends are settled in CA. They have to stay put. Otherwise they have to quit their careers and find somewhere else to go. With everything that entails. They can not just come to UK. He would have to come first, get a job which paid enough and then apply to home office. (We know how fun that is)

It's rather sounding like Canada would be better option for them long term ATM. They could not have the same career in Canada though. It would be a step down for both of them. UK has better employment prospects for them I think.

I have no idea what they will do. I guess it depends on what exactly their immigration status is and whether it will need to be reviewed. It's awful. I think she realises the situation but I'm not sure he's worked out the possible implications over their holiday yet. It's difficult to try and spell it out right now.

www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/trudeau-canada-refugees-banned-u-s/

A spokeswoman for Trudeau said Trudeau has a message for Trump.

“The Prime Minister is looking forward to discussing the successes of Canada’s immigration and refugee policy with the President when they next speak,” Trudeau spokeswoman Kate Purchase told The Associated Press.

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