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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

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Thread gallery
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mathanxiety · 29/01/2017 07:27

www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/1/27/14417272/republicans-obamacare-secret-tape-leak

The GOP's Obamacare dilemma, hopefully one that will tear the GOP apart.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 07:32

m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/01/trumps-immigration-fiasco-might-be-more-premeditated-we-think
Trump's Immigration Fiasco Might Be More Premeditated Than We Think

The only conclusion is trying to provoke civil war from that.

This is not over. There will be more provocation.

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 07:37

Beware rogue potus staff. If mother Jones correct that account may be more than you think too. I have doubts. There maybe a desire from WH to leak to add to chaos...

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Piggeligg · 29/01/2017 07:37

Thank you so much for this thread and all the information and analysis on it. It really helps to see the wood for the trees, both with Brexit and Trump.

My MP is Clive Lewis, I'm going to email him about the Article 50 vote but I'm not sure what to say - any ideas?

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 07:46

Being suggested some airport not compiling with court order...

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 07:48

Pig look for the Winston Churchill quote up thread about duties of MP. The first being the safety and honour of UK. Start from there

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mathanxiety · 29/01/2017 08:01

Johnson was the original populist demagogue and teflon-coated outsider, hence the portraits.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 08:02

Remind the people who could not see a problem with Appeaser May's citizen of nowhere speech today. Remind them of how they suggested your reaction was hysterical. Remind them how weak her words are now. Ask them do they support how Trump went about this ban. Ask them if they are comfortable with fascism. Yes middle England you lapped up the same thing. You supported this. Will you condemn when you see it play out like this rather than in secret behind the closed doors of British immigration and the home office. We are no better. This is why May refused to condemn and when she did it was so weak.

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Peregrina · 29/01/2017 08:14

This is why May refused to condemn and when she did it was so weak.
Even then, a statement had to be dragged out of her.

CeciledeVolanges · 29/01/2017 08:16

Piggileg i have emailed mine and am going to email back to his response today. Just say what you think and feel, really.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 08:23

Reminder of this
^Julie Kirchner, formerexecutive director of the anti-immigrant hate groupthe Federation of American Immigration Reform (FAIR),has reportedly been named chief of staff of U.S.Customs and Border Protection(CBP), the federal agency that oversees Border Patrol.

Then read this:

Leighton Woodhouse @lwoodhouse
Chu and Barragan asked to meet with local CBP managers at LAX about Iranian passenger. Just asked them to come outside to ticketing and talk
CBP refused. When asked who they're reporting to they said "Donald J. Trump."
Then CBP told two US Congressmembers they weren't getting anywhere with the call and hung up.

Jack Smith VI @jacksmithiv
Lawyers I've been on the phone with are saying that immigrants still detained in NYC are being pressured to sign away their long-term status

At least one detainee, according to a lawyer at JFK right now, was pressured to sign such a form. Terrified of deportation, they signed.

Leighton Woodhouse @lwoodhouse
Heard same in L.A. Unconfirmed but lawyers were hearing that Lawful Permanent Residents were being tricked/coerced into signing away status.

And this:
theintercept.com/2017/01/29/trumps-muslim-ban-triggers-chaos-heartbreak-and-resistance/

By the time Trump traveled to the Department of Homeland Security to trumpet the signing of his first anti-immigrant executive order Wednesday, the immigration official had personally reviewed four visa revocation cases that seemed to be out of the ordinary. In addition to young people with passports belonging to countries later targeted in Trump’s executive order, at least two were traveling on Jordanian passports. All were denied entry to the U.S. In one case, the visa of an Ivy League medical student was revoked by Customs and Border Patrol while he was in the air from a European layover to the U.S.

It’s unclear whether the visa revocations last week were related to the subsequent ban. “But the timing of the revocations indicates that CBP supervisors felt sufficiently empowered to use their discretion to deny admission and cancel the visas in these cases,” the immigration official said.

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 08:28

Anna Soubry @annasoubry
.@andywinter26 Trump's policy is wrong & deeply offensive. It stems from prejudice & misplaced fear creating further division & intolerance

Is someone going to talk about those letters being sent to EU citizens and these lists of children at schools.

Are they going to justify it and tell me it's ok?

Got a Tory MP. Step one. Get them to condemn trump's Muslim ban. Step two. Ask them why the fuck we are doing similar here?

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TheElementsSong · 29/01/2017 08:42

Remind the people who could not see a problem with Appeaser May's citizen of nowhere speech today. Remind them of how they suggested your reaction was hysterical. Remind them how weak her words are now.

The same goes for the many posters on here who applauded May's citizens of nowhere speech, and dismissed discussions about "traitors" etc as hysterical. And many who, even until yesterday, were saying that Trump might work out, or finding the hand-holding rather adorable. But it's all ok, because apparently now they're so appalled that they can't find the energy to type that they're appalled, but can find the energy to type that they're appalled that other posters have typed that they can't find the energy to type that they're appalled.

saldles845 · 29/01/2017 08:44

"Yes middle England you lapped up the same thing. You supported this. Will you condemn when you see it play out like this rather than in secret behind the closed doors of British immigration and the home office. We are no better. This is why May refused to condemn and when she did it was so weak." Just to add some balance, it's not just white middle Englanders. I know of several Muslim Pakistani Brits with dual citizenship who voted Leave because they don't like Eastern Europeans and feel more entitled to living in the UK than those Christian EU foreigners with dodgy accents. Hmm

Porkchopsandgravy · 29/01/2017 08:47

Pigge - I focused my reply on the basis that ref campaign was built on lies (both sides) therefore result was undemocratic.

That TM is nehaving in a tyrant fashion and party politics should not override national well being, that our economy, reputation and intrigrity was being trampled by the Torres and media and as an MP he had a responsibility to protect and serve his constituents.

I also acknowledged that MPs were in an impossible position and need to vote based on their conscience and with their democratic rights. As he is remain in remain I also pointed out as he must be aware that voting for A50 would not save his seat.

He said he is reflecting as cannot vote for A50 due to damage to his constituents.

It was a bit ranty and possibly inaccurate as politics is not my strong point but it was heartfelt and did not denigrate the leavers position or end result but did question - should it be like this?

Peregrina · 29/01/2017 08:51

But it's all ok, because apparently now they're so appalled that they can't find the energy to type that they're appalled, but can find the energy to type that they're appalled that other posters have typed that they can't find the energy to type that they're appalled.

But it's not that they mind being racist, it's that they don't like being seen to be racists.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 08:55

Come on Boris. Waley wakey. Why haven't you issued urgent travel advice to Brits traveling to and through the US? FCO is normally shit hot at this stuff. Is there a particular reason why you are reluctant to do so? More bothered that it might upset your bezzies rather than help your citizens.

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HesterThrale · 29/01/2017 08:59

A few months back, I posted on one of these threads that a major international security crisis might give the Govt. a reason to delay A50 / leaving the EU.

Well...

prettybird · 29/01/2017 09:00

A Scottish vet with an Iranian passport got caught up in Trump's madness. Her transit visa to allow for her transit transfer in New York on the way home from her holiday in Costa Rica was revoked Shock

The alternative route via Madrid cost £2000 Shock but the Women for Independence group successfully set up a crowd funding page so she could get home! Smile

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.
Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.
Porkchopsandgravy · 29/01/2017 09:09

Hester - I'm very scared (BME) but I do hope that politicians are playing the long game. I remember the Guardian comment from 24/6 that explained that Brexit was a poisoned chalaice that no PM could evoke.

Is TM playing a long game? Appeal/delay/cause ructions to paralyse progress? I'm not convinced she is that devious but it's my only hope.

Re Trump - I'm grateful in a way, he could have behaved covertly (e.g., visa's from those countries now 10k, same result but discreetly). Instead he has been so heavy handed we have an immediate and open reaction.

Can he and/or TM survive the next six months if they continue like this?

Headfullofdreams · 29/01/2017 09:09

Spot on, Peregrina.

Posting pics of Trump building a wall, with 'Yay' written underneath it doesn't look like a concerned person to me.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 09:13

Hester this weeks debates will press on. In a couple of weeks every one will have forgotten Muslim Ban. The US will be in another crisis but the nasty EU will have been mean to us again so what ever drama is going on there won't matter. If we are really unlucky there will be another terrorist attack too.

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 09:18

Josh Gerstein @joshgerstein
NEW: Immigrant groups just asked Brooklyn judge to address alleged fed non-compliance w/stay at JFK & LAX

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Piggeligg · 29/01/2017 09:21

Thanks for suggestions re Clive Lewis email. He's a remain Labour MP in a remain constituency and he's always seemed a strong man of principle so I'm depressed that he seems to be even considering following the Labour whip.

Re any hope that TM is still somehow game playing over Brexit, I'd love to think so but if that were the case she wouldn't be trying to push it through The H of C in just a few days.

SemiPermanent · 29/01/2017 09:23

The same goes for the many posters on here who applauded May's citizens of nowhere speech, and dismissed discussions about "traitors" etc as hysterical. And many who, even until yesterday, were saying that Trump might work out, or finding the hand-holding rather adorable. But it's all ok, because apparently now they're so appalled that they can't find the energy to type that they're appalled, but can find the energy to type that they're appalled that other posters have typed that they can't find the energy to type that they're appalled.

This will be aimed at me then?
It clearly is, as you've referred directly to my posts.

Get a grip.

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