Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
Kaija · 28/01/2017 13:53

6% of businesses maybe, but 44% of exports.

Peregrina · 28/01/2017 13:53

I don't like this one:

(4) The question that is to appear on the ballot papers is— “Do you support the Government’s proposed United Kingdom and Gibraltar exit package for negotiating withdrawal from the European Union or Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?”

I consider myself intelligent and I don't know what the answer would be because there are two separate statements. Should the UK remain a member - yes/no, and we have already had that one.

Do you support the Govt's exit package? You might want to Leave or Remain and still not support the exit package as negotiated.

Honestly, don't these people know the first thing? You ask one question at a time!

BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 13:55

A politician is a complete idiot / snake oil merchant if they claimed the UK can get soft Brexit without FOM
The E27 have said all along this is not possible, so any responsible politician should at least have said it is a very unlikely outcome.

It seems many voted believing "have cake & eat it" was certain.
That the UK just had to show it is tough & special
What are their views now ?

Polls aren't always a true reflection of views in a divided country, e.g. polls about inauguration crowds suggest that Trump voters may "expressively respond" i.e. give partisan answers to support their "team" that they do not necessarily believe.

Brexit was sold to many as hitting the "elite"
Most people who voted Brexit believed that any cost would be borne by somebody else - whether bankers, mc professionals or immigrants - not by themselves
e.g. triple-lock and final salary pensioners might be confident of this

What we don't know is how much - jobs, wages, tax credits, nhs, public services etc - voters are personally prepared to sacrifice to stop FOM

RedToothBrush · 28/01/2017 13:58

(the following are worded as 40 above but for relevant agency)
41) European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control
42) Community Plant Variety Office
43) European Medicines Agency
44) European Agency for Health and Safety at Work
45) European Aviation Safety Agency
46) European Centre for the Development of Vocational Training
47) European Police College
48) European Environment Agency
49) European Food Safety Authority
50) European Investment Bank
51) Eurojust
52) European Maritime Safety Agency
53) European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction
54) European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights
55) European Satellite Centre
56) Protected designation of origin scheme
57) Protected geographical indication scheme
58) Traditional specialities guaranteed scheme

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 14:03

The problem is that many Leavers think leaving the EU after 40+ years is a simple process with no other consequences.
It's not being emotional to point out those consequences, at least of Hard Brexit and to try to avoid them.

They would probably be very emotional later if they find themselves in May's deregulated tax haven economy. Too late.

RedToothBrush · 28/01/2017 14:04

Ok, I'm bored. You can see where this has been going.

I've counted the number of amendments in total.

there are NINETY FIVE.

Plus amendments to some of the amendments.

Labour and the SNP have been BUSY.
(I can't see any that have been tabled by the Lib Dems, but I may be incorrect).

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 14:05

Needs to clearly say what happens if the HoC doesn't approve the final Brexit deal.
Revert to status quo / Hard WTO Brexit / try to extend A50 time

Peregrina · 28/01/2017 14:06

Some of these European Agencies will relocate, I am sure, regardless. Once they are gone, they will be gone for a long time.

Is that 58 Amendments so far? Wasn't the one line bill supposed to be Amendment proof? Look at it the other way - these are a sample of the issues which need to be discussed and no doubt there are others. Greenland took 3 years to exit from the then EEC, had fewer countries to negotiate with, and predominantly only fishing to negotiate on. How on earth do people like May, Fox, Davis, Redwood, Hannan, and Uncle Tom Cobley an' all expect that this will be done and dusted within two years?

BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 14:09

The UK imports food, as well as raw materials and components for manufactured goods that it doesn't export, i.e. for its own population & internal UK market.
It needs exports to pay for these imports - can't borrow enough to buy essential imports if exports crash.

RedToothBrush · 28/01/2017 14:14

That's 58 of the 95 so far. I don't know if there is a deadline for submitting them.

These agencies need to be replicated by the UK. I do not see how they can be replaced in 2 years. Many of them rely on cross border cooperation too.

How sovereignty fits into this I'm not sure. We NEED cross border cooperation on many post Brexit.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 28/01/2017 14:17

For those of us who are worried about the slide towards fascism this story of
Opera Loving Sisters shows how even ordinary people can take a stand against it.

LurkingHusband · 28/01/2017 15:39

So Trump's executive order highly challengeable in court. Could put him in breach of his path to uphold the Constitution.

"It's not illegal if the President does it." Hmm.

Donald Milhous Trump ?

LurkingHusband · 28/01/2017 15:59

As an aside, it's good/interesting/bad that - at any other time in the past 43 years - the UK could have made a bold offer to Google et al, and said "why not use the UK as your base - no stupid immigration rules and* access to the EU market".

No longer.

(*Delete as applicable)

Mistigri · 28/01/2017 16:04

only 6% of businesses trade with the EU.

Most businesses are small, local set-ups which don't - and probably never will - export anything at all. Many of these don't even employ anyone but the business owner.

The 6% of businesses that trade with the EU are the big ones: the ones that employ many people, and which account for most of the corporate tax take. Companies like my employer ... which are big enough to move their EU-destined production offshore if faced with substantial tariff and/or non-tariff barriers.

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 16:27

Thanks red, scuse me for being dim, but what happens to these amendments now?
Do you know the deadlines for them to be discussed and voted on? Is it this idiotic gallop in 5 days?
Are Labour and SNP going to work together and with lib dems, to get them passed?
peregrina great story!

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 16:30

Plus cripes, I bet there's stuff even this list didn't address. The list of Euro British agencies, looks like 10 years work to untangle!!
Isn't the proposed referendum question one of the two suggested, peregrina but either way you need a bullet proof phrasing.

howabout · 28/01/2017 16:44

Woman
Amendments must be ‘relevant to the subject matter of the bill’.

Who decides whether to allow an amendment?
In the Commons, decisions about whether amendments are ‘in order’ and the grouping of amendments for debate are made by whoever is chairing proceedings. Because of its constitutional significance, the Article 50 bill will be considered in ‘committee of the whole House’. One of the deputy speakers (the Chairman of Ways and Means, currently Rt Hon Lindsay Hoyle MP) will be in the Chair and responsible for decisions.

Cribbed from below, but was covered on DP on Thursday or Friday.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/brexitexplained/supreme-court-ruling-article-50-appeal

Peregrina · 28/01/2017 16:44

Isn't the proposed referendum question one of the two suggested, peregrina but either way you need a bullet proof phrasing.

It was one of two and the other amendment was better, but our MPs were so cloth-headed last time that they would probably go for the wrong option.

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 16:50

thanks both, very helpful

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 16:54

^Personally I feel European, not British and would take EU citizenship in a heartbeat if available.
After so much racial abuse when I was young, I have no emotional attachment to the UK^
UK's loss BigChoc. I'd leave in a heartbeat atm.
Germany should be applauded for the ways it has tried at least to address racism and anti semitism, it may not be perfect, but they have shown the way in how it is possible to at least be grown up about it. ( I know about AFD objections etc but twas ever thus) Lot of Jews taking up offer of citizenship for Shoah descendants.

BromptonOratory · 28/01/2017 16:55

They are standing aside while rights for women and minorities are rolled back, because thsoe doing so support Brexit

BigChoc Can you explain which rights for women are being rolled back in the UK?

LurkingHusband · 28/01/2017 17:03

Can you explain which rights for women are being rolled back in the UK?

The restriction of child tax credits for a 3rd child (unless the product of rape) springs to mind ....

RedToothBrush · 28/01/2017 17:14

I perhaps overreacted because I have Iranian friends living in the US who cannot visit family in Iran safely.

I don't know the exact situation with friend's wife. I am pretty sure she was living outside Iran from a child in various places around the world but I'm not sure what age.

She is a similar age to DH so born in early 1980s.

She is safe to travel to Iran but I don't know how.

The thing is this also may directly affect her husband - if he still is a Brit (which I believe he is still) because he's been to Iran with her.

He works outside the US at times so could be really stuffed.

Google are recalling some of their staff now I see now.

I have other friends in us on green cards who could be next...

Trump must be challenged on this or we really are in Godwin level problems.

As it is people will die as a result of this order. One person barred was an Iraqi interpreter and his wife and baby granted a visa now blocked. This man risked his life for the us military for six years and has now been abandoned.

And Theresa May refuses to condemn.

OP posts:
woman12345 · 28/01/2017 17:21

Can you explain which rights for women are being rolled back in the UK?

First three generic but disproportionately affect female carers:
bedroom tax;
disability benefits;
CAMHS;
Tax credit benefits;
Refuges closed;
Older women's pension rights decimated;
Women who are carers for children, sick relatives have little or no employment protection;
Pensions for women who have been carers;
maternity rights;
maternity pay;
feeding mothers of newborns in hospital; !
rape crisis cuts;
rape law weakened following Ched Evans case;
financial support for vulnerable, young and refugee mothers;
More laterGrin

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 17:26

Red on the other thread, there's reports of Green card holders with permanent residency who have to go to their home country for visit are not being let back in to US. People are also advised not to post on FB of their status and Google and FB getting cross. There's this extract from an article, not sure if it's been posted yet.
...........

"Dr Trita Parsi, president of NIAC, tweeted: “Confirmed: Iran’s Asghar Farhadi won’t be let into the US to attend Oscars.”

NIAC said it had learned that a daughter of a greencard-holding Iranian family living in the US had been removed from her plane bound for the US from Dubai. After five hours of questioning she was allowed by Dubai officials to board another flight to the US.

Later, Parsi said on Twitter that he had learned of “another Iranian student with a multiple entry visa who was denied entry as she returned to the US from Europe”.

Parsi said it appeared that US border officials were deciding on whether green card holders could re-enter the US on a “case by case” basis which involved asking individuals about their political views. There were reports that some border officials were confused about their new instructions and unhappy about what was being asked of them".

Swipe left for the next trending thread