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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

OP posts:
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BromptonOratory · 28/01/2017 17:27

Thanks. Yes I hadn't thought of some of those issues as specifically (or disproportionately) affecting women but see I what you mean.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but how are maternity rights and pay being rolled back?

TuckersBadLuck · 28/01/2017 17:27

Can you explain which rights for women are being rolled back in the UK?

Restriction of UK residency rights for non-working EU spouses disproportionately affects women.

Peregrina · 28/01/2017 17:36

This is not new but at least the Pope spoke out, about the treatment of refugees. I sincerely hope he doesn't water down his message.

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 17:36

BromptonOratory here you go!
www.telegraph.co.uk/women/work/maternity-discrimination-your-shocking-experiences/
Currently, 77 per cent of pregnant women and new mothers experience discrimination at work, compared with just 45 per cent a decade years ago, according to the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC). Last year, the EHRC found that 54,000 women a year in the UK were being squeezed out of work, a number that's doubled since 2005. While a new study published by the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) found that mothers who return to work end up earning a third less than men - as the birth of a child cuts their chances of getting promotions and pay rises.

77% up from 45% in 2006 experience discrimination.

They've done austerity experiments on women and the disabled here, wasn't good under Labour, but IDS and Osborne seemed to really get their jollies out of it.

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 17:41

TM can't help refugees because she's busy selling bomby planes to a fascist.
www.middleeasteye.net/news/may-urges-erdogan-respect-human-rights-bae-sign-arms-deal-turkeys-army-1559494585
Wonder if she'll go to church tomorrow?

Peregrina · 28/01/2017 17:47

I assume that it's known which Church she attends. The times of services are published. A few demonstrations outside with choice biblical quotes might be a good idea.

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 17:54

Protests in US.
www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/26/new-york-trump-immigration-executive-order-muslim-protests
What was it that Misti said about cauliflowers a while ago?

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 18:00

www.commondreams.org/news/2017/01/28/refugees-already-detained-groups-race-stop-trumps-muslim-ban
Refugees who were in the air on the way to the U.S. on Friday when Trump signed his order were detained when they landed, the New York Times reported Saturday
special relationship.Shock

tiggytape · 28/01/2017 18:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 18:05

Shaun King ‏*@ShaunKing* 1m1 minute ago
More
I am told that religious tests are indeed now being performed at our airports to determine Muslims from Christians from the 7 nations.

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 18:06

The Guardian
8m ago
17:47
Hamaseh Tayari, a UK resident who holds an Iranian passport, has been on holiday in Costa Rica with her boyfriend for the last week. She was due to fly back to Glasgow, where she works as a vet, this morning but was denied entry onto the flight because her flight went via New York and she would need a transit visa, which was revoked.

Tayari, who grew up in Italy, has never experienced anything like this. She says: “This has really shocked me. We just discovered [what Trump did] at the airport when we went to check-in. I want people to know that this is not just happening to refugees. I am a graduate and I have a Phd. It has happened to a person who is working and who pays tax.”

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 18:08

Washington is responsible for its policy on refugees, Theresa May told reporters, when asked about Trump’s ban on people from certain countries seeking refuge in the US.

TuckersBadLuck · 28/01/2017 18:09

TM can't help refugees because she's busy selling bomby planes to a fascist.

She's not selling anything, it's an already-announced deal and it's BAe providing 'technological assistance' to a Turkish company. The whole deal is worth £100m.

To put that into perspective the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter costs around $100m for a single plane. A plane like the lower tech 'Hawk' trainer (of the type alleged to have been used for killing civilians in East Timor) would cost around £20m for a single plane.

Basically BAe are doing a bit of design work and it was announced a year ago anyway.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 18:30

woman and other pp have brilliantly listed how womens' rights are being rolled back

It's difficult to think of an equivalent where a man would have to prove he was raped to get tax credits or other benefits for a 3rd child

GloriaGaynor · 28/01/2017 18:42

The TUC asked Michael Ford QC for an independent legal opinion on the consequences of Brexit for UK employment law and workers’ rights after Priti Patel stated: “If we could just halve the burdens of the EU social and employment legislation we could deliver a £4.3 billion boost to our economy and 60,000 new jobs.”

Looking over the many rights guaranteed by the EU, and the government’s past form and public policy documents, he suggested the protections that would be most vulnerable are:

  • Collective consultation, including the right for workers’ representatives to be consulted on major changes that will change jobs or result in redundancies (as we’ve seen recently in the steel industry).
  • Working Time Directive rules, including rules on excessive hours, breaks and the amount of holiday pay you’re entitled to.
  • EU-derived health and safety regulations.
  • Transfer of Undertakings (TUPE), the protections to your terms and conditions if your job is transferred or outsourced to a new employer.
  • Protections for agency workers and other ‘atypical’ workers, such as part-time workers.
  • Current levels of compensation for discrimination of all kinds, including equal pay awards and age discrimination.

Changes to laws on working time directives, part time work & discrimination compensation may disproportionately affect women.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 18:43

The Turkish deal is to jointly develop the TF-X Turkish fighter programme. So the aim is to enable Turkey to produce more, or more efficient, bombs & weapons themselves:

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-turkey-bae-idUKKBN15C0IM

BAe said:
"It will also pave the way for a deeper defence partnership and could effectively make the UK Turkey's partner of choice, positioning it as a key aerospace technology exporter to Turkey," .

"The wider programme could see the UK win contracts to provide engines, weapons, radars and sensors."

Unfortunately, that is probably how May wants to develop future relationships with many dictatorships:
help them to kill more people

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 18:46

I can't believe what that man is doing right now to US citizens with green cards and refugees. Testing for religion, in airports. Even US citizens who have had to go away to work or travel are not being allowed back into their own country. Refugees who have been through god knows what, turned away, to possible death on return to their original countries, this really is like what the Nazis did, and sadly what other European countries and America did during the war. Tragic.

France and Germany has condemned and incriminating silence from May.
Silence is enabling. Absolutely shameful, when you think of the number of dads and granddads who aren't here because they lost their lives fighting an idiot like that.
Shameful.
And nothing again from JC.
Disgraceful

Bolshybookworm · 28/01/2017 18:53

I have a Palestinian friend in the states red who is also very scared. The West Bank is not on the list of 7 countries but she fully expects the list to be expanded. She has cancelled plans to visit elderly relatives abroad for fear of not getting back into the us.

One caveat is that friends from Iran experienced similar problems under George w bush (e.g. high level professor from US college being refused right to return for several months each time they travelled), so the targeting of certain nations is not a new thing but it's never been this blatant or extreme.

RedToothBrush · 28/01/2017 18:53

Appeaser May

OP posts:
woman12345 · 28/01/2017 18:53

Meanwhile, China ready for war with US
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-donald-trump-war-us-military-official-practical-reality-president-latest-a7550601.html
And the refugee ban heightening tensions with Iran

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 18:54

Meanwhile, Mohammed Al Rawi, a graduate of California State University and former journalist with the Los Angeles Times, said his father had been hauled off a flight in Qatar as a direct result of Mr Trump's decision.

He wrote on Facebook hours after the order was signed:

Mohammed Al Rawi
14 hours ago
My 69 year old dad is in Qatar boarding LAX flight to come visit us and and he's being sent back to Iraq. Some US official told him that Trump canceled all visas.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 18:59

Past UK govts fiercely opposed some of the workers' rights defined by the EU, e.g.

  • It obtained an optout which seriously weakened The Working Time Directive in the UK.
    Workers can "voluntarily" agree to work over 48 hours because of course they wouldn't be sacked or not get the job if they refuse to sign the waiver Hmm

  • They didn't manage to optout from the agency workers rules. So those pesky workers get the same pay and holiday as regular employees.
    Oh, those evil Eurocrats

btw, for anyone thinking of voting UKIP, the link & the picture summarise their views on equality the last couple of years (the Tory right wasn't much better)

leftfootforward.org/2014/05/15-reasons-women-shouldnt-vote-for-ukip/

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.
CrystalMcPistol · 28/01/2017 19:07

Theresa the Appeaser.

Shameful.

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 19:08

Because I'm pen pals with the ukips, BigChoc, I had a look at their manifesto, it's like a proper labour one. Apart from their proud sexism and racism they're like original labour! Wish labour was Sad

Creepy thing noticed on the BBC web site:
Mr Trump signed the order (Refugee/ Nazi type deportation) on Friday, which was International Holocaust Remembrance Day.
The president's statement to mark that occasion, on the 72nd anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, made no mention of Jews or anti-Semitism
Presuming that it probably didn't happen to Jews.
I was in Poland 25 years ago, near Zakapane which is near Auschwitz which I couldn't bear to go to.
We went to a salt mine, in which Jews and Polish prisoners had carved the most beautiful but eerie chamber.
Already, the Polish tour guide asserted that it was built by Poles, but was loathe to admit that any Jews had been forced labour too.
So even on Holocaust Memorial Day, truth is relative.

CrystalMcPistol · 28/01/2017 19:09

UKIP MEPs really are a shower of greedy, lazy, self serving shites. Not that that's news or anything. But sometimes the stupid bastards really make me want to punch a wall.

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