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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
ElenaGreco123 · 27/01/2017 22:44

We now know who the 2020 Democrat candidate must be: Leslie Knope. (Fictional leader of the National Parks Agency played by Amy Poehler - for people who didn't watch Parks & Rec.)
What has Trump got against trees?

whatwouldrondo · 27/01/2017 22:46

Yup

Peregrina · 27/01/2017 22:55

Part of me wishes that all EU staff working in the NHS would down tools for half a day. It might just make people wake up to how dependent we are on them. Another part doesn't because patients would suffer.

Bolshybookworm · 27/01/2017 23:16

God, I WISH Lesley knope was real. She would be right in there. I watch parks and rec to try and pretend that the world isn't full of a**holes.

Headfullofdreams · 27/01/2017 23:34

I find some solace that when Trump crashes and burns spectacularly in the not too distant future, all those fawning to crawl up his backside (I'm looking at you, May, Gove, Farage, Banks, Hopkins, Piers Morgan) will also crash and burn or be forever tainted by association.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/01/2017 23:51

Many US folk have noticed how their various National Parks have been tweeting subversively ever since the inauguration Wink

First they came for the scientists…

And the National Parks Services said, “lol, no” and went rogue and we were all like,
“I was not expecting the park rangers to lead the resistance, none of the dystopian novels I read prepared me for this, but cool.”

BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 00:14

Trump and May could destroy some institutions that can't be rebuilt by their successors

The NHS (May), Nato, Middle East could be permanently damaged

Certainly if much of the nhs were to be privatised, especially to US companies, it would be almost impossible to renationalise and buy it back: too expensive, too complicated and the US might impose trade sanctions.

The NHS & the welfare were created at an exceptional time just after WW2 when the country was prepared to pay to create them and voted accordingly.
The energy, imagination and the national will are no longer there to build such institutions from scratch

If Trump were to allow Russia to occupy & invade some countries, a future US Prez would probably have to accept it, just like they didn't dare attack the former USSR to drive it out of the occupied East European countries. Similarly anywhere in the Middle East, if Trump & Putin divided up some oil wells.
No other countries could stop them if Russia & the US agreed on this.

mathanxiety · 28/01/2017 06:04

Theresa may is the biggest fascist of them all.

She is also attempting a very cringeworthy middle aged sex bunny thing, with the leather trews, the flapping open skirt for the meeting with Donald Tusk, all those shoes, the smirking 'Opposites attract' and the hand holding.

.......

The fight for science, for scientific freedom, and for the influence of science in the US is a big one, gearing up to be as important as the Scopes Monkey Trial. It has a very similar set of opponents.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist%E2%80%93Modernist_Controversy A note on the Fundamentalist-Modernist rift in American protestantism whose echoes are still felt today.

Mistigri · 28/01/2017 08:39

Has the Daily Mail (!!!) woken up to what a disaster it would be to leave the customs union?

Also appearing at the committee today was Andrew Baxter, managing director of Europa Worldwide Logistics, who warned that the biggest concern was the extra transit time for goods being traded outside of Europe's customs union.
Extra storage capacity will also be needed at customs, he warned.
...
He said UK businesses and manufacturers would be put at a disadvantage compared to their European rivals if they were forced to order products earlier or didn't have a regular, guaranteed delivery service.
'One of the biggest issues is in delaying good and delaying transit times,' Mr Baxter warned. 'That's a big issue - having a secure supply chain is massively important to our customers.'
Firms need reassurance that deliveries will turn up on time and 'don't get snagged in the process'.

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4156922/UK-firms-face-crippling-costs-outside-customs-union.html#ixzz4X2kNrEIu
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Bolshybookworm · 28/01/2017 08:50

Interesting. Maybe Ms Mays tactics are all a game of chicken with the Mail and their ilk. Take us right to the brink of disaster so they can see the consequences of full withdrawal from the EU.

Or maybe I'm just unusually hopeful this morning Grin

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 08:51

Completely agree math vassal maid.
She's pimped us. If there's one reason for people to sign my little lib dem postcards to MP today, it's that, we'll see. For those who don't see, which I presume is most, the difficulty is explaining it without sounding like an end of days lunatic. Chicken licken party anyone? Grin

The attack on science is one of the most gruesome features of this administration: it's a war on the enlightenment.

One of the beautiful but unresolved aspects to American history is both the energy of survival of those who helped 'found'/'colonise' America, and the victim hood of the religious and ethnic communities who fled Europe. In their case evangelical christianity. It's a jihad.

Pleased to see what NationaParks are doing, Bicchoc, but there are terrifying posts on other threads, not verifiable, on how scientists in agriculture, ecology and health are having to shut down contact.

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 08:55

Check out the Daily Fail's reporting of DT in October, highly critical/ sensible.
^Given that Donald Trump, we now know, is the type of man who talks about women in the vilest language and boasts of being able to grope them with impunity, one may wonder whether his mother would actually view that as a compliment nowadays.
With Trump’s Neanderthal attitude to women now, astonishingly, the issue that looks likely to seal the result of the U.S. presidential election next month, it’s inevitable that many are asking where on earth these views came from^.
And then suddenly 'the king is dead, long live the king', stuff.

Mistigri · 28/01/2017 09:08

Maybe Ms Mays tactics are all a game of chicken with the Mail and their ilk.

You have to wonder. Any Tory MP or party supporter with experience of manufacturing industry, either directly or as an investor (eg Mrs May's OH), will know that leaving the Customs Union has the potential to be utterly disastrous for exporters. In that Mail article they talk about delays at ports of 2-4 days (IMO if nothing is in place and tested before we leave, it could be weeks not days initially). Now go away and calculate the impact on the balance sheet of a large exporter of an increase in inventory of that magnitude. And then consider where you are going to stock lorries and their contents as they queue to get through customs. Dover has no space for this; they are already forced to use roads to "warehouse" lorries every time there is a delay on the ferries. And finally, have a stab at putting a figure on the loss of market share of UK businesses supplying to EU industries which use a just-in-time inventory management model.

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 09:11

The game seems to be to find enough economic reasons to not vote through a50, when the real reasons are those of morality, national security and democracy.
Economic reasons never worked against Hitler, in fact the opposite.

Headfullofdreams · 28/01/2017 09:19

I have been hoping May is playing a long game. Who would seriously give the 3 stooges the positions she did, who would want to be known as the PM who destroyed the UK economy? It's got to be a game.

Peregrina · 28/01/2017 09:21

At a meeting about Brexit at Oxford Town Hall last night, the sole MP present, Andrew Smith from East Oxford was asked why wasn't he representing his constituents, to loud applause. He said as an MP he had to use his judgement. Fine, but where does 'the people have spoken' come into using judgement? Someone from the floor spoke up to repeat something he had heard elsewhere: When Pilate asked the crowd who they wished him to release, they shouted Barabas. That for me sums up the people have spoken nonsense. Pilate was not considered to be strong.

Peregrina · 28/01/2017 09:25

It's got to be a game.
It might have started out as a game for her, but now she has lost sight of that. Power has gone to her head. As for her cosying up to Trump! Most of the civilised world will want to retch, or at best, think she's lost her marbles.
The sooner Trump is impeached, or throws in the towel, and who knows what he would do, the better. If she then looks utterly stupid, it will be her own fault.

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 09:28

Peregrina
www.andrewsmithmp.org.uk/andrew_warning_to_prime_minister_over_brexit His letter to PM.
I always worry when a fiction written by a misogynist is quoted to support arguments about democracy Grin Never played out to well for the semites last time.

PattyPenguin · 28/01/2017 09:53

Fairly recently on these threads someone mentioned Prestwick and the plans for a spaceport. Er...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-38768483

Of course the Tories are trying to spin it as MPs foolishly wasting time on Brexit and Article 50, when they could be discussing the Modern Transport Bill. Gah!

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 10:14

May is doing this. You normalise one fascist, and along comes another:
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/27/theresa-may-recep-erdogan-turkey-human-rights-not-on-agenda

Footage of Turkish fashion designer who had said the 'wrong thing' about Erdogan on social media, being beaten on his return to Turkey has been removed.
in-cyprus.com/video-shows-angry-mob-attacking-sansal/

Turkey, which had equal rights for women before Britain in the 1920s under Ataturk. And now...

BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2017 10:14

Listen carefully, because May and the Tory party are telling us what they are really like.
It is only when there is no effective opposition that a govt reveals its true colours.

Their Brexit vision of a low-regulation tax haven is for the wealthy; it's disastrous for anyone who needs the nhs, a welfare state, or protection against an employer.

Listen carefully to Labour too.
They are also telling us what they are like in a crisis, as the Official Opposition supposed to defend the country against a rampant govt
You can't hear because of the chaos ?
Well, most of them roll over for bullies, some will even join the bullies; as a whole, they're in headless chicken mode.

Tiresome feminist rant
Let's not criticise women for what they wear. We don't criticise men for this.
Middle-aged women especially get slated because we are supposed to disappear

woman12345 · 28/01/2017 10:17

What trade deals can justify this visit to Turkey?

Peregrina · 28/01/2017 10:25

The letter signed by Andrew Smith and others is good, but that didn't come across last night. He looked weak. The Tory Councillor, looked smug, and complacent, and couldn't put forward any sensible arguments, which seems typical of Leave voters. The LibDem, Liz Lefman was good, pity she didn't get elected in Witney, and the Green spokesman was good. Alistair Fitt, VC of Oxford Brookes was disappointing - very worried about the impact of loss of research grants and freedom of movement for students, but seemed unwilling to do anything about it.

StripeyMonkey1 · 28/01/2017 10:29

Woman12345 - I agree with this:

The attack on science is one of the most gruesome features of this administration: it's a war on the enlightenment.

There is a sense of a move back to the dark ages in the US

  • Endorsement of torture
  • First moves towards removal of access to abortion
  • Listing crimes committed by foreigners, in a move clearly designed to stoke xenophobia

Next to Trump, May looks almost attractive. But why have we put ourselves in a position in which we are so desperate to be seen to be cozying up to Trump? It's madness.

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