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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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woman12345 · 27/01/2017 20:28

I'm not too sure why she's voting against her constituents
I wonder what we don't know about why this is being forced through at break neck speed with no substantial debate.
I wonder why she debased herself and the country today.
I wonder why JC is being such a fuckwit.

lalalonglegs · 27/01/2017 20:29

Grandaughter in law

I remember that quite well. For some reason he was interviewed about the Kate topless pictures - which were taken from about a km away with a very powerful zoom - and he said that it was her fault as she should have expected to be photographed and that she was not classy (unlike the queen whom he claims to adore). I was quite taken aback by his victim-blaming at the time. Little did I know what was to come Sad.

woman12345 · 27/01/2017 20:31

Whoops, her daughter in law had a mysterious accident. Blush

lalalonglegs · 27/01/2017 20:34

I wonder what we don't know about why this is being forced through at break neck speed with no substantial debate
Because a real debate would point out the huge flaws in the process on which May and her government have now staked their reputations.

I wonder why she debased herself and the country today.
So May can tell people how we have a FTA in the bag and all will be fantastic in Brexit Britain.

I wonder why JC is being such a fuckwit
Generally because he is an idiot of quite staggering proportions but, in this case, because he is frightened of defeating the government and possibly facing an early general election. We'll see if he grows a backbone if he wins Copeland and Stoke next month.

RedToothBrush · 27/01/2017 20:56

You Gov Poll on Torture.

Guess which voters are torturers.

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.
OP posts:
ElenaGreco123 · 27/01/2017 21:06

lala Another pedant here. Both Cope land and Stoke candidate is anti-Corbyn.

Re: torture. Have you seen Paul Ryan and Mitchell McConnell's press conference? It was a bit like a hostage video. They both said that torture is illegal and they are comfortable with current laws. As Speaker of the House and Senate majority leader they indicated that they wouldn't support new legislation on it.

RedToothBrush · 27/01/2017 21:08

politicalscrapbook.net/2017/01/trump-wants-a-trade-deal-with-the-uk-that-he-can-cancel-in-30-days-what-a-joke/
Trump wants a ‘trade deal’ with the UK that he can cancel in 30 days. What a joke

U.S. President Donald Trump said on Thursday he would strike numerous bilateral trade deals, as opposed to multilateral accords like the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and they would include clauses to allow a 30-day termination notice.

Hostage taking.

OP posts:
lalalonglegs · 27/01/2017 21:15

Elena - I take your point but Sadiq Khan was an anti-Corbynite mayoral candidate and Corbyn did not share a single platform with him or attend any mayoral election events that I know of. It didn't stop him claiming Khan's win as a victory for Corbynism though and proof of the popularity of his own brand of politics Hmm.

SwedishEdith · 27/01/2017 21:17

I signed up for YouGov polls the other day. Don't remember being asked about torture so wonder who they pitch their polls to? Do they target different polls to different people depending on declared voting preference to get a representative sample? I presume they must.

lalalonglegs · 27/01/2017 21:19

Yes, I thought I heard Trump say that about 30-day notice periods on international trade deals earlier which made my alarm bells clang but I didn't see it mentioned anywhere else and thought that I might have imagined it. I can see that going well for us (and any other country foolish enough to trust a man whose ego is this fragile and who has said countless times over the decades that he likes to screw the other guy over when making a deal...).

TuckersBadLuck · 27/01/2017 21:24

Guess which voters are torturers.

More importantly 53% of UKIP voters think torture works but 56% think torture should be allowed.

So 3% of UKIP voters think torture should be allowed even though they don't think it works? For fun presumably? Hmm

CeciledeVolanges · 27/01/2017 21:46

For deterrence? Because they are bad hombres?
To be fair, "prison works" is also aload of bollocks and a lot of people still think it is all right to spend vast amounts of money to treat prisoners as subhuman.

SwedishEdith · 27/01/2017 21:54

"any other country foolish enough to trust a man whose ego is this fragile"

Well, quite. He'd cancel them over Twitter.

LittlePickleHead · 27/01/2017 22:02

SwedishEdith I've thought the same thing about YouGov. I signed up a few months ago and have made it my mission to answer every poll plus extra questions. I had no poll about torture either.
Also I've not been asked about my Westminster voting intention (aside from when I joined) at all, despite a regular poll release from them.
I would like to know their sampling process...

BigChocFrenzy · 27/01/2017 22:06

30 days means May must jump to every command
If she refuses anything, he reminds her that 30 days later ....

BigChocFrenzy · 27/01/2017 22:07

So Nuttall is reinforcing his core vote

SwedishEdith · 27/01/2017 22:10

Little - I've always been cautious about them because, I think, they were set up by a fervent right winger. But, I think they've been sold/taken over since then.

SwedishEdith · 27/01/2017 22:11

Yes, I suspect lots of kippers will support torture because it only ever happens to someone else.

woman12345 · 27/01/2017 22:19

All sorts of reports from US scientists in panic and lockdown:

SarcasticRover ‏*****@SarcasticRover*** 24 h
SarcasticRover retweetou John Upton
First they came for the agricultural scientists…

John Upton @johnupton
Under Trump, 2,000 Department of Agriculture scientists have been gagged — barred from publicly discussing research. www.buzzfeed.com/dinograndoni/trump-usda

SarcasticRover ‏*****@SarcasticRover*** 16 h
Don’t say one damn word about ‘snowflakes’ or ‘safe spaces’ while your president is scared to look science in the eye.

SarcasticRover ‏*****@SarcasticRover*** 24 h
Taxpayers fund scientific research but aren’t allowed to see results unless the government says it’s safe.
That is not right.
It is wrong.

HashiAsLarry · 27/01/2017 22:20

I hope that's not in the same way that she believes 65 million people in the UK are behind Brexit
In fairness I think all of us are behind her. Just a fair few are flipping v signs or carrying knives Wink

woman12345 · 27/01/2017 22:26

The fact that we are even discussion torture proves his control. He's forcing us to by pass humanity. It's happened by law as we can't just offer homes to refugees.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/denmark-criminalising-decency-with-crackdown-on-helping-refugees-says-woman-prosecuted-for-giving-a6927676.html

How many men have spoken up against his sex crimes? Half the population is appearing to collude by omission.

May's visit is unforgivable. She has now normalised fascism. Less than a week ago, that was what was being warned about.

Totalitarianism makes criminals or colluders of all of us.

JC's silence is sickening. Jess Philips is brave, she's done enough, she has young children.

Back to the emails and postcards.

usuallydormant · 27/01/2017 22:34

Companies like YouGov have thousands on their panel databases and need a representative sample for about 1000 for a standard poll, so c.500 women split across say 5 age bands and say 8 government regions and possibly social class. Add to that the fact that middle aged women are among the easiest to recruit and it's unlikely you will be asked to take part in many representative polls by the laws of average.

You don't normally preselect based on voting intention unless it is a survey of say, ukippers. They are a bono fide research company (have no connections with them) unlike the Ashcroft polls I see quoted here often which are very opaque around methodologies.

Peregrina · 27/01/2017 22:35

The management of the Atomic Energy Authority were not consulted and are reported to be furious. How does Theresa May hope that we will lead the world in science, when she's just closed another door on it?

I will give Maggie Thatcher her due, she was a scientist herself, and was supportive of science - well climate research at least.

What a contrast with the fools we have in power now.

woman12345 · 27/01/2017 22:36

March to save NHS
www.healthcampaignstogether.com

ElenaGreco123 · 27/01/2017 22:41

I haven't done the torture Yougov poll either, but when I have time I often get the daily political issues.

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