Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris, May and Judgement Day

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 13:49

Well its finally here. The day America changes forever. Good luck planet earth.

Our day of reckoning is beckoning too.

Tuesday is Supreme Court Judgement Day.

At 9.30 Lord Nueberger and the other ten justices will convene and he will read out their judgement.

Contrary to some suggestions this does not mean the decision is necessarily unanimous. It is normal for the Supreme Court to do this.

Nueberger will read any disagreements out as part of the judgment.
Their ruling will be far reaching in its importance however it goes.

A victory for the government will mean a50 can be triggered as and when Theresa May likes. That could be Tuesday afternoon in theory.

If it’s a victory for the claimants then things get much more complicated. It depends on how far the justices go.

It could rule that parliament need to vote on a50.

It could rule that the Great Repeal Act must be passed before a50 can be invoked.

It could rule that the Scottish and NI Assemblies must agree to a50 being invoked.

It could rule that the Good Friday Agreement must be resolved before a50 can be invoked.

It could rule that issues over acquired rights must be resolved before invoking a50.

It could draw other conclusions that we have not thought of.

A strong victory for the claimants could seriously hamper May’s plans for Brexit. Which is exactly why she has laid out her vision and has prepared the battle lines ready for her next round of blame laying.

None of this will be because the government has been short sighted.

If there is a strong victory, remember that May could have avoided the situation by accepting the High Court’s ruling in December that she needed Parliament’s consent to trigger a50. Anything more that makes triggering a50 more difficult is her sole responsibility and she had the power to avoid. Much of the right wing press will tell you differently.

We've heard so much about Hard Brexit and Soft Brexit. We should also talk of Democratic and Undemocratic Brexit. How Brexit is managed and how we conduct ourselves is arguably as important to the future as economics. It is right to oppose Undemocratic Brexit. It is important to make that distinction and all the principles that fall under that concept. What opposition there is need to get their shit together on this principle. Using patriotism to stifle this wholly wrong and unhealthy. Saying Brexit must happen no matter what, regardless of how bad it is and regardless of the cost is wrong.

Make the case for democracy. Keep talking about it. Talk about where it is failing and what we must do to strengthen it, not undermine it.

Here lies Labour's policy on Brexit. "We support Democratic Brexit which is the will of the people. This is how we define this. This is what is needed economic and socially." You can find the necessary slogans from this and start defining it outward from that. So far they have failed to capture this sentiment concisely into a soundbite that people can start to develop and push a left wing liberal agenda on their own terms from. Their PR is shocking and they are incoherent. May owned Corbyn at PMQ earlier this week on these grounds. This is not because they have been misrepresented by the press or been the victim of biased media. Its because they have been shit and have failed to set their own agenda and instead are dancing to everyone else's.

Here’s hoping that democracy will win through the challenges of the next few years. Democracy is about elections and referendums, but it is also so much more. It is about on going debate and the freedom of this debate, freedom of the press, a range of political parties and points of view, the independent judiciary, the right to oppose the state, freedom to exercise your legal rights, freedom of speech, an understanding of equality and an understanding and above all else - respect for of all of the above. It does not bode well that much of the right wing press and right wing politicians are telling us differently.

So much hope about our futures now rests with Angela Merkel one way or another.

Meanwhile Corbyn could face a major rebellion over a50 if he pursues a three line whip rather than a free vote. 60 - 80 Labour MPs are threatening not to tow the party line with shadow cabinet resignations potentially also on the cards.

Brace yourselves the roller coaster is just about to hit a one big drop.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Peregrina · 20/01/2017 19:11

Invoking Godwin's Law again - Hitler was democratically elected but he was a Dictator.

And as to there being no bad news from the Nissan CEO: I am near Oxford. I have friends working at the BMW factory. I would not be reassured right now as to the long term stability of my job. Oxfordshire itself is considerably better placed than Sunderland to mop up job losses.
Except that its other big industry is Science and Technology, and this is also a sector where the news is not reassuring.

TheElementsSong · 20/01/2017 19:12

Just watch when they all scarper if the sunny uplands don't materialise.

Nah, none of them will be scarpering. In the vanishingly unlikely event that Brexit doesn't turn out to be a red, white and blue titanic success, they've already got their excuses lined up: the nasty EU administering punishment beatings, and Remoaning Remaniacs for not "getting over it" and "working together" (in an undefined way), for Talking Britain Down and Willing Failure and Being Unbelievers.

Kaija · 20/01/2017 19:12

"Pergegina your post seems to be willing failure there and job loss"

Good grief. Yes, Peregrina, just keep repeating "I do believe in Brexit". Or tinkerbelle gets it.

TheSmurfsAreHere · 20/01/2017 19:12

Well if I was working at Nissan, I would be worried reading that they a reviewing their investments. Because that's a code to say 'I'm not sure if investing is such a good idea anymore.'

Every company is always reviewing if their investment is the right one or not. It doesn't need saying. So when they do, it does mean they are taking special attention and it's rarely in a good way.

So in that way, yep poor Sunderland. And poor North East. Because the workers there were convinced nothing would stop Nissan ever working from there. And I would hate to see that company going from there. It's not just Nissan that would be affected. It's all the sub contractors and suppliers (having worked for one of them, I can tell you the people affected by NIssan are not just the Nissan workers in the factory itself).

TheSmurfsAreHere · 20/01/2017 19:17

What I find interesting is to watch how business and the politics are working with or against each other in this unstable times.
Somehow TM had managed to convince Nissan to at least not say they would be considering their options and maybe relocate the factory when They are starting a new line.
Now the tune is slightly different. They are talking about reviewing things, something that they said was clear in October (or ta least that's how it was presented then).

Now I'm interested the know why it was in Nissan interest not to say 'we will reviewing our options' back in October? But somehow now that TM has outlined her plans more, it is.
Is that, that TM promised something that she isn't keeping?

woman12345 · 20/01/2017 19:17

Buzzcocks anyone?Grin
Black Grape?

WrongTrouser · 20/01/2017 19:19

Yes Peregrina but Hitler did do one or two things which Trump and the Republicans haven't done, and those are the things which define him as a dictator, not the getting elected. I am questioning whether pp who are talking about it being possible to get rid of dictators, really believe that USA is under a dictatorship.

Debbie this is what frightens me, it frightens me far more than Trump does. So many people seem very loosly wedded to the preservation of democracy. Scary.

Peregrina · 20/01/2017 19:19

"I do believe in Brexit".

Yes, this will put food on the table and keep a roof over our heads.
What some Leavers seem unable to get is that there is a difference between being Panglossian and knowing that there are potential problems ahead but putting in contingency plans to deal with them.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 20/01/2017 19:20

I see Peregrina so your own personal take on Nissan then - nothing to do with that the actual boss of that company has said Grin

Kaija · 20/01/2017 19:21

"Is that, that TM promised something that she isn't keeping?"

There was speculation at the time that she had given them an assurance about membership of the customs union, as that was about the only promise she could legally give.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 20/01/2017 19:22

I just feel sour grapes towards Sunderland who - according to many remain posters had the temerity to Vote Leave and they didn't even have any immigration there Shock the naughty naughty people.

Wrong I agree. Its bloody terrifying and we saw this lying and re writing of truth Under Blair.

Kaija · 20/01/2017 19:23

The irony is almost unbearable.

Peregrina · 20/01/2017 19:23

Aren't the vast majority of posts on these threads people's personal takes on things?

woman12345 · 20/01/2017 19:28

Last song in honour of the lib dem win:
Lambton Worm Grin

Kaija · 20/01/2017 19:32

"Yes Peregrina but Hitler did do one or two things which Trump and the Republicans haven't done, and those are the things which define him as a dictator, not the getting elected. "

Hitler wasn't elected on a promise to build concentration camps, but a promise to Make Germany Great Again.

Peregrina · 20/01/2017 19:33

I don't think anyone is feeling sour grapes towards Sunderland. A lot of us feel they could be shafted. What looked certain back in October doesn't look quite so good now. But this was dismissed as 'Project Fear'.

The economy of Oxfordshire, which also has a big car industry is considerably healthier, so is much better placed to survive a downturn in the economy.

With scientific research, I would be pretty confident in saying that Oxford University will survive, because it's wealthy and has been around for 800 years, but it might slip down the research rankings.

Lots of us think Blair was a liar - but he didn't create the Brexit mess.

WrongTrouser · 20/01/2017 19:38

Hitler wasn't elected on a promise to build concentration camps, but a promise to Make Germany Great Again

Yes but again that is not what defined him as a dictator so is not an argument that demonstrates that Trump is a dictator.

woman12345 · 20/01/2017 19:40

Michael Moore on Channel 4 news: 100 days of action, and the last person who offered protectionism and autarky to build up domestic industry.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 20/01/2017 19:41

A lot of us feel they could be shafted

so much so - you manage to turn an innocent and actually positive article into one laden with doom Confused

woman12345 · 20/01/2017 19:42

'the last person' who started Volkswagon.

TuckersBadLuck · 20/01/2017 19:43

No WrongTrouser you're right. He was defined as a dictator by the democratic 1934 referendum which granted him supreme power.

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 19:44

WrongTrouser
Is there a dictatorship in the USA? I thought the administration, including Trump, were elected? How are they are a dictatorship?

Hey give him half a chance. He's only just been elected!
These dictators take a while to get going.

Dictators get elected too. They don't all come from military coups. Usually starts with clamping down on the press. They use widespread propaganda and go to extreme lengths to distort the truth. Then a state of emergency of some kind. Often that comes from protests or violence from some sort of opposition. The state of emergency gives the leader additional power so they can by-pass normal cheques and balances. This allows them to act for national security. Opponents are rounded up. State of emergency extended and then never revoked. They use statements about doing things for the people, mixed with lots of patriotism. They use fear to control the population. They create an enemy to blame for all ills. There is a cult of personality.

Not to mention that Alt-Right do Nazi salutes and they are his fan club plus Trump just used the 1930s Nazi sympathising slogan 'America First' in his speech.

Just saying.

Nothing to worry about. In 4 years time there will be a perfectly normal and fair election...

OP posts:
HashiAsLarry · 20/01/2017 19:45

Companies' constantly review things. What they don't tend to do however is announce this. Reviews mean destabilisation and acknowledgment of uncertain futures, something investors do not like.

Sounds like TMs little diatribe broke some promises. But Nissan should have known better, as IDS pointed out - they were only promises that were a series of possibilities.

Peregrina · 20/01/2017 19:45

I didn't know there was a job description for Dictators!
Trump isn't yet. God knows, almost literally, is about the only thing you can say about how he will turn out.

Is Putin?

May is behaving like a petty dictator, but I think the Tory grandees will stab her in the back before she becomes one.

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 19:47

Actually Trump fits best with the definition of Kleptocracy.

The fact that he has not dealt with the conflicts of interest he has with his businesses, really is the thing you should be looking hard at.

OP posts: