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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris, May and Judgement Day

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 13:49

Well its finally here. The day America changes forever. Good luck planet earth.

Our day of reckoning is beckoning too.

Tuesday is Supreme Court Judgement Day.

At 9.30 Lord Nueberger and the other ten justices will convene and he will read out their judgement.

Contrary to some suggestions this does not mean the decision is necessarily unanimous. It is normal for the Supreme Court to do this.

Nueberger will read any disagreements out as part of the judgment.
Their ruling will be far reaching in its importance however it goes.

A victory for the government will mean a50 can be triggered as and when Theresa May likes. That could be Tuesday afternoon in theory.

If it’s a victory for the claimants then things get much more complicated. It depends on how far the justices go.

It could rule that parliament need to vote on a50.

It could rule that the Great Repeal Act must be passed before a50 can be invoked.

It could rule that the Scottish and NI Assemblies must agree to a50 being invoked.

It could rule that the Good Friday Agreement must be resolved before a50 can be invoked.

It could rule that issues over acquired rights must be resolved before invoking a50.

It could draw other conclusions that we have not thought of.

A strong victory for the claimants could seriously hamper May’s plans for Brexit. Which is exactly why she has laid out her vision and has prepared the battle lines ready for her next round of blame laying.

None of this will be because the government has been short sighted.

If there is a strong victory, remember that May could have avoided the situation by accepting the High Court’s ruling in December that she needed Parliament’s consent to trigger a50. Anything more that makes triggering a50 more difficult is her sole responsibility and she had the power to avoid. Much of the right wing press will tell you differently.

We've heard so much about Hard Brexit and Soft Brexit. We should also talk of Democratic and Undemocratic Brexit. How Brexit is managed and how we conduct ourselves is arguably as important to the future as economics. It is right to oppose Undemocratic Brexit. It is important to make that distinction and all the principles that fall under that concept. What opposition there is need to get their shit together on this principle. Using patriotism to stifle this wholly wrong and unhealthy. Saying Brexit must happen no matter what, regardless of how bad it is and regardless of the cost is wrong.

Make the case for democracy. Keep talking about it. Talk about where it is failing and what we must do to strengthen it, not undermine it.

Here lies Labour's policy on Brexit. "We support Democratic Brexit which is the will of the people. This is how we define this. This is what is needed economic and socially." You can find the necessary slogans from this and start defining it outward from that. So far they have failed to capture this sentiment concisely into a soundbite that people can start to develop and push a left wing liberal agenda on their own terms from. Their PR is shocking and they are incoherent. May owned Corbyn at PMQ earlier this week on these grounds. This is not because they have been misrepresented by the press or been the victim of biased media. Its because they have been shit and have failed to set their own agenda and instead are dancing to everyone else's.

Here’s hoping that democracy will win through the challenges of the next few years. Democracy is about elections and referendums, but it is also so much more. It is about on going debate and the freedom of this debate, freedom of the press, a range of political parties and points of view, the independent judiciary, the right to oppose the state, freedom to exercise your legal rights, freedom of speech, an understanding of equality and an understanding and above all else - respect for of all of the above. It does not bode well that much of the right wing press and right wing politicians are telling us differently.

So much hope about our futures now rests with Angela Merkel one way or another.

Meanwhile Corbyn could face a major rebellion over a50 if he pursues a three line whip rather than a free vote. 60 - 80 Labour MPs are threatening not to tow the party line with shadow cabinet resignations potentially also on the cards.

Brace yourselves the roller coaster is just about to hit a one big drop.

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RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 17:46

Meanwhile back in Sunderland

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/15038065.Nissan__will_review__competitiveness_of_Sunderland_plant_after_Brexit__reveals_boss/?ref=rss&utm_content=bufferd6e18&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Nissan 'will review' competitiveness of Sunderland plant after Brexit, reveals boss

According to the Reuters news agency, Mr Ghosn said: "Obviously when the package comes, you are going to have to re-evaluate the situation, and say, `Okay, is the competitiveness of your plant preserved or not?'

"We are going to have to make decisions on investment within the next two to three years, so obviously the faster the Brexit results come, the better it is."

Erm. That doesn't sound quite as positive as it did previously.

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woman12345 · 20/01/2017 17:47

And the fifth column in Surrey....................

Badders123 · 20/01/2017 17:58

Michelle Obama has more sense than to run for office.
I'm so sad today.
Ds2 was 3 months old when Obama was sworn in in 2008.
I felt such hope, such happiness.
I'm hoping this is a parallel to 1968 and like Nixon he will be gone soon.

Peregrina · 20/01/2017 17:58

Yes, so we must keep a note of what they actually say,
And that has worked, when ?

In the past not, but now with the internet and social media especially, it's much easier to broadcast what they said, and ridicule them.
Do you have better suggestions? We have to keep trying.

Dictatorships have been beaten in the past. I recall the time when Ceausescu gave a speech - the crowd started booing and shouting back. He was stunned that this could happen, but it did, and he and his wife were soon gone. This was helped by the movements in the other E European countries.

We need to reach a tipping point, but we are not there yet.

Motheroffourdragons · 20/01/2017 17:58

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Badders123 · 20/01/2017 18:01

I can't watch it.
I can't.

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 18:04

Tim Montgomerie ن ‏*@montie*

Never forget "America First" was motto of the 1930s movement that opposed US involvement in the war against Hitler and fascism

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woman12345 · 20/01/2017 18:12

Dictatorships have been beaten in the past Flowers

lurkinghusband · 20/01/2017 18:15

Peregrina

Ah, the naivete of youth Grin.

If no one can be held to account for the £350 million bus statement, then trying to catch people out on just words alone is doomed to failure. I am afraid the playbook on this has not only been written and published, but people have had 60 years to refine it.

I don't think Goebbels would have feared the internet in any way shape or form. He would have embraced it.

Here's a test. Ask a random group of people who have been living in the UK since 2000 (to pick a year) what they remember about Jean Charles de Menenzes. Of the 20% who recognise the name, maybe 1 in 4 (so 5% total) will vaguely recall the Stockwell shooting. Now, despite the truth being reported many many many times since then, see how many of those people "remember"

  • that he was wearing a heavy jacket (he wasn't)
  • that he vaulted the barrier (he didn't)
  • that he was fleeing the police (he wasn't)

It's been SOP for the police for years to plant false stories quickly in the media immediately after a cockup. Yes, the truth will out. But - like newspaper retractions and corrections - who notices then ?

Peregrina · 20/01/2017 18:21

I am not normally called youthful these days lurking!
I also thought I was extremely cynical, but perhaps you beat me to it.

woman12345 · 20/01/2017 18:22

It's just that no one knows the history: it's like the NI thread, embarrassment of my ignorance.
No one knows the codes; the 'rapture' stuff you talked about earlier, redKu Klux Klan; that America First is a nazi organisation; that 'law and order' was Nixon's racist code.
Hopefully we'll learn, and as you said Peregrina it's a job of work, you just get on with the organisation.
If Starmer is behaving like this, it's all hands to the 3 million, 48% and Tim Farron, remain Labour. There are tories with integrity who have constituents who need to eat and live; they need to be persuaded to do the right thing.

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 18:31

Bryan Donaldson ‏*@TheNardvark*
BREAKING: The Secret Service has shot and killed another time traveller, bringing today’s total to 873. #InaugurationDay

Lurkinghusband I'd be the one to screw up your random test. My reaction to the Jean Charles de Menenzes shooting, after they held a police press conference less than 24 hours afterwards, was to say to DH, "This isn't right. They aren't telling us something. Listen to what they are NOT telling us". Then it all came out. I was perhaps the only time I have been THAT struck about a story that really didn't feel right from the word go and really did bother me. Its the case that makes me say to people: "Listen to what you are told" and also "Listen to what you are NOT told".

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woman12345 · 20/01/2017 18:31

Tory press rains on the parade:
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/no-donald-trump-isnt-massive-magnificent-gift-britain/

Peregrina · 20/01/2017 18:43

The Nissan news is not good, and no one wants to see the workers lose their jobs, but they cannot say they weren't warned by Nissan itself.

At the same time, Ghosn seems to be giving out mixed messages. The Northern Echo quotes him as saying:

Earlier this week, Mr Ghosn said that Mrs May's announcement that she would take the UK out of the European single market and seek a comprehensive free trade agreement with the remaining EU was "not a surprise" and "does not change the decision" to continue investing in Sunderland.

So May's decision to go for a Hard/Undemocratic Brexit does not alter that. Was he hoping for an EFTA agreement, which would just about fit with his statement, but May has gone beyond this? Is it just a question then of how far the £ drops? Either way, it's not good. Those in Sunderland who voted Leave to support the NHS must be feeling completely sick now.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 20/01/2017 18:55

Nissan CEO " It is quite quite clear they intend to keep the same competitive environment for us" Hiroto Saikawa.

How on earth is looking to review what exactly happens when it comes, not good news!?

Are they supposed to close their eyes to the environment they are in and just carry on! Of course they are going to have a review, its normal.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 20/01/2017 18:56

Pergegina your post seems to be willing failure there and job loss.

woman12345 · 20/01/2017 19:00

Poor Sunderland. That factory is a lifeline to a city that's had such a rough deal. Timing is key in everything atm.

Riots now in Washington on Sky news, they tried to do to a shot of Pres car and cut away from riots. News.........
Remember the song 'Everybody's happy nowadays' The Buzzcocks (ask your dad, as Charlie Brookner would say) skit on Huxley's, Brave New World.

woman12345 · 20/01/2017 19:01

Wonder how much she offered Nissan?

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 20/01/2017 19:02

Poor Sunderland? Did I miss something?

woman12345 · 20/01/2017 19:02

Buzzcocks One of many of Manchester's finest.

TheElementsSong · 20/01/2017 19:03

Pergegina your post seems to be willing failure there and job loss.

Yes Peregrina, stop sending out your overwhelmingly powerful mind waves against the bright future of Brexit Grin

WrongTrouser · 20/01/2017 19:03

Is there a dictatorship in the USA? I thought the administration, including Trump, were elected? How are they are a dictatorship?

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 20/01/2017 19:04

There is nothing in that article that is negative at all or would lead anyone to think there are going to be imminent job losses. So why on earth would someone be lamenting exactly that?

Peregrina · 20/01/2017 19:05

How on earth is looking to review what exactly happens when it comes, not good news!?

No one expects a business not to keep reviewing the situation, but this was not how it was trumpeted in our Press back in October. Nissan's future was guaranteed, the naysayers i.e. Remainers were wrong. Now it doesn't look quite so black and white. Will the Mail/Telegraph and Express be screaming this news tomorrow, or will it be tucked away on an inside page?

And quite honestly, I am pretty sure that you know that. If Brexit were so wonderful there would be absolutely no problem putting it to Parliament and then going to the Country. The sly way that May is trying to ram it through is the sign of a PM who knows her hand is weak, but is trying to blame everyone else. Just watch when they all scarper if the sunny uplands don't materialise.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 20/01/2017 19:07

But they were elected by the Wrong people Wrong Sad - so its not democratic. People who really should have their vote removed for being too thick.

There is an actual movement trying to put this into practice, that is to remove the vote from people who don't fit a certain criteria in terms of education etc.

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