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Brexit

Westministers: Boris and May give us the Brexit Leeming Plan.

995 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2017 15:17

Theresa May has made a speech.

It’s a wish list for hard core Brexiteers. It’s a large corporate executive’s wet dream for exploitation.

Even requests for a white paper as recommended by the Brexit Committee have been ignored. Thus meaning there is no chance for proper scrutiny. Plus whilst on the one hand parliament have been told they will have a vote on the end deal, this is merely slight of hand, with Davis stating that if parliament vote against this, then we will leave the EU without a deal in a chaotic exit. Thus making the vote an exercise with a gun to parliament's head.

Workers Rights and the Welfare State die with Brexit. Even the precious NHS. Especially the precious NHS once its been stole off to the highest American bidder.

May is being lobbied by her hard right and to save her next she listens only to them. She has no interest in listening to anyone else. The demographic and voting patterns favour her to head this direction. There is nothing to be gained for her personally by doing anything else.

She is already laughing her head off in glee at the collapse of the NI assembly. It plays right to her agenda.

Under the wheels of the bus go the JAMs, under go the disenfranchised who rarely vote but came out in force for the referendum, under go single mothers, under go the disabled, under go those with mental health concerns who struggle with already bureaucratic systems set up to ‘catch them out’, under go the EU immigrants especially those who have families here and may not have equal rights in future, under go British Citizens living abroad who might find themselves without healthcare or pensions, under go our Human Rights and any chance of challenging the state’s authority and interference in our every day lives, under go small business who will drown in red tape, under go Scotland and NI.

Yet this is ‘for the children’ or ‘the grandchildren’. Its spineless and cynical and offers nothing for those currently able to vote but under the age of 40. Won't you think of the children? Its fine if you are already retired and have a nice little pension isn't it?

The National Interest? This is a foreign concept. Probably an EU one.

The Baby Boomers are net beneficiaries of the welfare state. The young are unlikely to have a welfare state in a few years and are already net contributors. They have now been robbed of the choice over their future and in patronising tones effectively told they are irrelevant.

And of course Uncle Donald is a fan. You can almost see his vampire fangs reading to get his teeth into the UK and suck the life blood out of it.

It is a horror show.

Its all about selling Theresa May to the Express and the Mail and they love it. Her speech is to set the scene of how committed she is and to lay the blame at anyone who challenges her. It attacks the EU and paints them as the aggressor who are there to prevent poor little Britain from getting what it wants. If Brexit goes wrong, it was all an anti-British plot. Not a collective self inflicted brain haemorrhage. She's gone full on Farage and out Farages Farage.

This all comes perhaps a week before the Supreme Court Ruling.

Funny timing eh? No not really.

It’s a pre-emptive strike.

What on earth will they say? Will this merely allow May to dismantle our current legal system by gathering support for a General Election Manifesto that outlines its demise? Thus extending the mandate for Brexit even further. Probably.

I fear that the courts may only serve to strengthen May in the long run due to the lack of opposition and a Labour party that is imploding, with dozens of its MPs being rumoured to be looking for employment elsewhere. I fear that without a media able to effectively hold May to account in the face of her media baron supporters.

Our only hope really lies within the Conservative party itself and whether May is able to keep a lid on the various on going power struggles. The only trouble is that one of those challengers is a certain Brutus in the form of Mr Gove. I struggle to work out who would be worse; Gove or May. And of course this only highlights the issue that who else is there with in the Conservatives who isn’t a reptile? Even Arron Banks commentated that during the referendum he found Labour MPs nice people and the Conservatives unpleasant almost to a man. High praise indeed.

Meanwhile in America, NATO is obsolete and so Europe will have to consider an EU Army and Russia is firmly getting its claws in. And yeah, just Donald Trump. That Project Fear thing was just fake scaremongering wasn't it? Right? Right?

sigh

What on earth can possible stop this insanity? Not necessarily stop Brexit, but at least stop the PURE INSANITY.

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Peregrane · 19/01/2017 14:35

"It's easy to overemphasise how important the UK is to Germany. We take only 7.1% of total German exports, if there were trade barriers and tariffs put in place and they lost half of their sales to us it's still only a 3.5% dip in their total exports - and that would be mitigated by them finding it easier to compete against our businesses for sales to the rest of the EU - and to those countries which the EU already has trade deals with."

What Tucker said, and let's recall as well that Germany has a current account surplus that is off the charts. Its three-year average is 7.5% of GDP. The UK has a current account deficit of -4.4% of GDP. Who do you think is in the stronger position here? (If you don't know what the current account is, think just of the difference between the amount you export and the amount you import - the bulk of the current account is made up of that, so the situation will be analogous. This difference has a host of implications for the economy.)

Cailleach1 · 19/01/2017 14:43

Of course, next it will be the evil bstrds WTO, India, US, New Zealand who have the temerity to insist on clauses in their trade agreements.

Oh and the EU will still be one because they won't give all the cake to the UK because it is worth it.

Peregrane · 19/01/2017 14:45

"Like in Sports Direct or in the totally un regulated grey market areas of building, car washes etc using cheap EU labour - using people who have no concept of working rights in the first place, yeah"

Debbie how delightful. Yes, those half-human labourers from the rest of the EU surely lack the faculties to comprehend working rights. Hmm

Apart from the amazingly offensive nature of your comment, you may take moment to reflect on the fact that CEE immigrants come from countries with a history of communist regimes having been forced upon them, and therefore are likely have a passing acquaintance with the notion of workers' rights.

lurkinghusband · 19/01/2017 14:45

Well, isn't the whole point of having Human Rights that they apply to everyone regardless of who they are, or the wrong things they might have done?

Well when education worked, the "human" was the clue as to the intent. But in these post-truth days, it seems to need clarifying.

Of course there will always be a wail from the intelligence-challenged that "criminals give up their human rights", which might be a great bumper sticker, but which misses the point by a country mile.

A criminal is only what the state says they are

No more. No less. The UK has some laws which make people criminals which other countries do not. By the same token, other countries have laws which make people criminals which the UK does not.

"Criminality" like "stupidity" is a moveable feast - there is no absolute definition.

I have been incredibly lucky in life (starting with being a man) and born into a country where I could learn, work, and raise a family safely in peace. I hope that if there ever came a time in the future where people need to take a stand against evil - whether threatened from abroad, or fomented from within - I will not be found wanting.

TheSmurfsAreHere · 19/01/2017 14:47

On the metaphor point, my parents are part of a golf club. Membership si expensive. But wanting to play there as a non members is totally extortionate.
Because the aim of the golf club is to encourage to become a member rather than paying as you go.

So of course you can be a member of the eu and pay as fo, just for the bits you want. I would expect that the cost for that would be quite high.....

Suppermummy02 · 19/01/2017 14:53

You'd have no problem with the state removing your children to educate them in the way they think is correct then?
Isn't that what happens in state schools already? Not so sure banning private schools would be so bad, would it?

You'd have no problem with people being sterilised against their will for any number of reasons?
I am pretty sure that is covered under numerous laws and if someone was sterilised against their will there must be very good reasons. Using a right to family life to allow a woman to keep having babies is probably very dangerous.

You'd be comfortable for anyone on this threat to be deported as an EU national even if they are married to a British citizen and have kids here?
I expect all EU nationals legally here now to be allowed to stay here now, post Brexit. I am not comfortable with us being unable to deport dangerous criminals just because they have managed to impregnate someone.

Thing is, if you abolish your human rights in order 'to get criminals', how do you protect yourself from being deemed a criminal one day?

If you keep increasing human rights to protect yourself how do you protect yourself from someone entering your house because they have a human right to a warm bed? There has to be limits.

RedToothBrush · 19/01/2017 14:54

www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/article-50-supreme-court
Whose hand is on the Brexit trigger?

A piece on the upcoming Supreme Court judgement.

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Suppermummy02 · 19/01/2017 14:55

Because the aim of the golf club is to encourage to become a member rather than paying as you go

But we dont want to play on their golf course, we just want to sell them golf clubs.

Bobochic · 19/01/2017 14:57

Don't you think golf club members are more likely to buy their equipment from fellow club members than from non-members?

HashiAsLarry · 19/01/2017 14:58

But we dont want to play on their golf course, we just want to sell them golf clubs
Whilst not realising that there are members who also want to sell them golf clubs often made to a higher quality and with a bargain friends rate deal.

RedToothBrush · 19/01/2017 15:03

Nice try. A bunch of answers which deliberately avoid what the point was. You well know that removing children from families for the state to educate how they see fit meant a bit more than that. You are not stupid. Don't treat us as stupid either.

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Peregrina · 19/01/2017 15:05

Isn't that what happens in state schools already?

No. The 1944 Education Act stipulates that you have to have your children educated, which would normally be expected to be in a school 'or otherwise'. Hence Home Schooling sometimes gets called 'Education Otherwise'.

lurkinghusband · 19/01/2017 15:09

If you keep increasing human rights to protect yourself how do you protect yourself from someone entering your house because they have a human right to a warm bed? There has to be limits.

There are. How do you think we get to lock up criminals in the first place, despite their human right to freedom ? You may want to give the answer some real thought, as it would inform the rest of your (incorrect) assertions about how human rights work.

And for balance, while Mrs May is wibbling about scrapping the HRA etc, I suggest you pop over to a US-centric forum, and suggest that they scrap their constitution (which is ironically an enshrinement of British Human Rights circa 1688). I'll pay for the matchboxes that will be needed to store the pieces once they have finished with you.

Even Trump - for all his noise - would not for a second suggest repealing the US constitution.

missmoon · 19/01/2017 15:13

Like in Sports Direct or in the totally un regulated grey market areas of building, car washes etc using cheap EU labour - using people who have no concept of working rights in the first place

I also found this very offensive (xenophobic, racist even). Have you ever been to Poland? Estonia? Lithuania? These are developed countries, education is very good, they just don't have the jobs (yet, this may change with Brexit as our industry relocates). Many regions of the UK are poorer, with worse health, education and other outcomes, than the average region in Eastern Europe.

prettybird · 19/01/2017 15:25

On the human rights discussion, I'm sure that suppermummy knows that the ECHR is nothing to do with the EU. Hmm

I know that TM/some of the Conservatives want to repeal the Human Rights Act but that is a separate issue to Brexit. It's also written into both the Scotland and NI devolution agreements (and I presume Wales), so to repeal it would either involve the explicit consent of the devolved administrations/overriding those administrations' rights and/or people in England having fewer human rights than elsewhere in the UK.

ElenaGreco123 · 19/01/2017 15:28

Thank you for all of you standing up for people born in Eastern Europe.
I am quite happy to dig out my school books on workers rights, exploitation and history.

Why are all the posts answers to Supermummy today? Is it a slow news day?

cakeycakeface · 19/01/2017 15:29

Worse the idiots going on about how bloody special and great Brits are (they really do mean the English though)

^^ this

I voted No in indy1. I would like to vote no in indy2 too, but am increasingly thinking I may opt miserably for Yes. Everyone I know who voted No is now voting Yes. In Indy1 I literally only knew 2 people who voted Yes. I currently don't know a single person arguing for No.

DH, staunch No the last time, said last night that he thinks a Yes to indy2 is the only option left to Scots. Even though it was clearly explained during Brexit that this would likely break up the union, it's hard for me to believe England and it's people really give a fuck about the other Nations. I type those words with a sense of horror, because I've always deeply disliked that attitude up here. But how can I argue against it anymore?

HashiAsLarry · 19/01/2017 15:32

The issue with TM's 'clean' brexit is that it leaves the door open to leaving ECHR too. Especially if she can play the 'nasty europeans made us do this' card and whip up enough anti european sentiment that people won't even see they're signing everything away to her end-game.

HPFA · 19/01/2017 15:35

cakeycake There are probably many English people that are hoping an Indy2 will get a Yes vote. It will give us somewhere to go to away from what England is becoming.

Although as my father was Irish I might have an escape route there too.

RedToothBrush · 19/01/2017 15:41

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/19/corbyn-to-impose-three-line-whip-on-labour-mps-to-trigger-article-50?CMP=twt_gu
Corbyn to impose three-line whip on Labour MPs to trigger article 50

Four shadow cabinet ministers, including close Corbyn loyalists, and several more junior frontbenchers, have told the Guardian that they are agonising about whether to back the party line of what one called “waving through” article 50, in what could prove the first real test of new chief whip Nick Brown’s powers of persuasion.

One shadow cabinet minister from a remain constituency told the Guardian: “I’m concerned that if we wave article 50 through, my constituents will go crazy.” Another said: “When the pain hits, as it will, and when people lose their jobs, you need to be on the right side of that. I don’t think we should vote to trigger article 50.”

I wonder what Rushanara Ali, Graham Allen, Ben Bradshaw, Ann Coffey, Neil Coyle, Stella Creasy, Geraint Davies, Jim Dowd, Louise Ellman, Chris Evans, Paul Farrelly, Mike Gapes, Helen Hayes, Meg Hillier, Peter Kyle, David Lammy, Chris Leslie, Ian Murray, Barry Sheerman, Tulip Siddiq, Angela Smith, Catherine West and Daniel Zeichner will do. They voted against the idea in principle in December. With what is being proposed will they still vote against and will they be joined by others?

Potential for a defection to the Lib Dems for any?

No its not enough to block a50, but there is still fall out for Labour here if Corbyn does employ the line whip. There WILL be rebellion.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-disgraceful-five-fold-rise-eu-citizens-detain-immigration-mps-bid-detention-yvette-a7535536.html
5 fold increase in EU citizens detained by immigration in detention centres.

Plenty of MPs upset by this. If this is possible though and is happening, why all the screaming about loss of control over our borders and inability to stop criminals?

Matthew Holehouse ‏*@mattholehouse*
Minister Hancock: UK can "rebalance" the "tightness" of migration regime for non-EU post free movement. Wonder if PM agrees.

What do you think?

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lurkinghusband · 19/01/2017 15:42

Why are all the posts answers to Supermummy today? Is it a slow news day?

Seems a fair mix of answers and (mainly unanswered) questions to me.

Like a lot of people who support(ed) the Leave campaign, SuperMummy seems to have sashayed into this thread thinking all they need to do is to parrot "taking back control" along with a serious of assertions they read early today in the Daily Mail, in the expectation that these pesky remainers will suddenly see the light.

Very occasionally, a good point will be made - to no great surprise. But since (to the best of my knowledge) no remainer has ever started off saying "the EU is absolutely perfect as it is", it's of no real import.

RedToothBrush · 19/01/2017 15:48

Remember THAT poster?

I give you this:

Santi Palacios ‏*@SantiPalacios* 21 hours ago
It could be 1944 but we took this picture today (with a drone) in Belgrade. #Refugees wait for food distribution under a heavy snowfall.
twitter.com/SantiPalacios/status/821785621932998676

(If you are into photo journalism @MikelKonate who is also credited on the picture is worth a follow).

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Suppermummy02 · 19/01/2017 15:51

Guess Labour has finally decided which side of the fence it is on and will push through Brexit no matter what.

And with Polls showing remainers are getting over it. Looks like the sunlit uplands are just ahead, to borrow a phrase.

TheSmurfsAreHere · 19/01/2017 15:51

XRed this article is SCARY! I mean really really scary. As in nightmare scary.

And there re still people, incl suppermummy, that think the government isn't going to kick eu citizens out, even when they have spent all their working life here??? What other proof do you need?
I mean detaining people for months at a time for having a party in the park??

TheSmurfsAreHere · 19/01/2017 15:59

Yes suppermummy what is happening is that people have been nicely brained washed into it.
And because Brits are just ever so apathetic and so worried about creating a fuss, they just keep their gob shut and have refused to stand up to someone overusing their powers (as the High Court stated btw when it said that TM not getting the approval from the Parliament wasn't lawful)
Because we have MPs that don't dare saying their don't agree with their leader, even when the leader is going against human rights.
Because we have a press that doesn't dare saying anything at all either, probably they are all owned by such a small number of people so they cannot be truly independent.

If you want to leave the EU. Please do it.
But do it in a democratic way with full involvement of the Parliament.
Do it whilst being held accountable for telling lies.
Do it within a spac where all ideas will be listened to. Not shit done because they aren't THE Party line (Party with a capital P, on purpose)

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