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Brexit

Westministers: Boris and May give us the Brexit Leeming Plan.

995 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2017 15:17

Theresa May has made a speech.

It’s a wish list for hard core Brexiteers. It’s a large corporate executive’s wet dream for exploitation.

Even requests for a white paper as recommended by the Brexit Committee have been ignored. Thus meaning there is no chance for proper scrutiny. Plus whilst on the one hand parliament have been told they will have a vote on the end deal, this is merely slight of hand, with Davis stating that if parliament vote against this, then we will leave the EU without a deal in a chaotic exit. Thus making the vote an exercise with a gun to parliament's head.

Workers Rights and the Welfare State die with Brexit. Even the precious NHS. Especially the precious NHS once its been stole off to the highest American bidder.

May is being lobbied by her hard right and to save her next she listens only to them. She has no interest in listening to anyone else. The demographic and voting patterns favour her to head this direction. There is nothing to be gained for her personally by doing anything else.

She is already laughing her head off in glee at the collapse of the NI assembly. It plays right to her agenda.

Under the wheels of the bus go the JAMs, under go the disenfranchised who rarely vote but came out in force for the referendum, under go single mothers, under go the disabled, under go those with mental health concerns who struggle with already bureaucratic systems set up to ‘catch them out’, under go the EU immigrants especially those who have families here and may not have equal rights in future, under go British Citizens living abroad who might find themselves without healthcare or pensions, under go our Human Rights and any chance of challenging the state’s authority and interference in our every day lives, under go small business who will drown in red tape, under go Scotland and NI.

Yet this is ‘for the children’ or ‘the grandchildren’. Its spineless and cynical and offers nothing for those currently able to vote but under the age of 40. Won't you think of the children? Its fine if you are already retired and have a nice little pension isn't it?

The National Interest? This is a foreign concept. Probably an EU one.

The Baby Boomers are net beneficiaries of the welfare state. The young are unlikely to have a welfare state in a few years and are already net contributors. They have now been robbed of the choice over their future and in patronising tones effectively told they are irrelevant.

And of course Uncle Donald is a fan. You can almost see his vampire fangs reading to get his teeth into the UK and suck the life blood out of it.

It is a horror show.

Its all about selling Theresa May to the Express and the Mail and they love it. Her speech is to set the scene of how committed she is and to lay the blame at anyone who challenges her. It attacks the EU and paints them as the aggressor who are there to prevent poor little Britain from getting what it wants. If Brexit goes wrong, it was all an anti-British plot. Not a collective self inflicted brain haemorrhage. She's gone full on Farage and out Farages Farage.

This all comes perhaps a week before the Supreme Court Ruling.

Funny timing eh? No not really.

It’s a pre-emptive strike.

What on earth will they say? Will this merely allow May to dismantle our current legal system by gathering support for a General Election Manifesto that outlines its demise? Thus extending the mandate for Brexit even further. Probably.

I fear that the courts may only serve to strengthen May in the long run due to the lack of opposition and a Labour party that is imploding, with dozens of its MPs being rumoured to be looking for employment elsewhere. I fear that without a media able to effectively hold May to account in the face of her media baron supporters.

Our only hope really lies within the Conservative party itself and whether May is able to keep a lid on the various on going power struggles. The only trouble is that one of those challengers is a certain Brutus in the form of Mr Gove. I struggle to work out who would be worse; Gove or May. And of course this only highlights the issue that who else is there with in the Conservatives who isn’t a reptile? Even Arron Banks commentated that during the referendum he found Labour MPs nice people and the Conservatives unpleasant almost to a man. High praise indeed.

Meanwhile in America, NATO is obsolete and so Europe will have to consider an EU Army and Russia is firmly getting its claws in. And yeah, just Donald Trump. That Project Fear thing was just fake scaremongering wasn't it? Right? Right?

sigh

What on earth can possible stop this insanity? Not necessarily stop Brexit, but at least stop the PURE INSANITY.

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Mistigri · 19/01/2017 11:55

Why are we still arguing basic leave/ remain points with people entirely ignorant of the realities of world trade? :-/

You are not going to change minds, and if hard leavers really did want to educate themselves on things like trade dispute settlement mechanisms (whether it's called the ECJ or the DSB it still requires you to give up sovereignty) they would have done so months ago.

You can't cure wilful ignorance, but you can stop wasting your time trying.

Motheroffourdragons · 19/01/2017 11:55

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HashiAsLarry · 19/01/2017 11:56

I still find it highly amusing that anyone believes Cameron did much else other than ask them to throw him a bone so he could call off the referendum.

TuckersBadLuck · 19/01/2017 11:57

it is about having a market big enough for the other players to want to give something in return

To be fair we do have a market, and a local one at that, which should, under any other circumstances, make us a prime candidate (or target even) for a great free trade deal with the rest of the EU - they've continually given us good deals in the past by offering us heavily customised membership terms after all.

It's the 'under any other circumstances' which is the problem though isn't it? It's been said before but if you have a club where members pay a subscription and abide by the rules in return for access to the facilities then why on earth would you allow one of your members to leave the club, stop paying a subscription and stop abiding by the rules while still giving them the same access to the facilities? That could have only one possible outcome for the future of the club.

We won't be denied May's imaginary deal in order to 'punish' us though, we'll be denied it simply pour décourager les autres - that and the fact that the 'not-a-customs-union' proposed by May is impossible to implement.

Cailleach1 · 19/01/2017 12:00

About the 'majority of the electorate' issue. Isn't it strange that such a referendum which could bring about such changes should not have had to be approved by a certain threshold of the entire electorate in order to pass.

I guess that is where the advice on the bill to MP's which stated it was not binding comes in.

TuckersBadLuck · 19/01/2017 12:01

Not being an anal pedant I just speak in working class English,

What's it got to do with being an 'anal pedant'? 'Electorate' has only one meaning - the people entitled to vote at an election. If you use it incorrectly it has nothing to do with you being 'working class' and everything to do with you being thick.

I'd made my mind up about your lack of intelligence already though.

Motheroffourdragons · 19/01/2017 12:01

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Peregrina · 19/01/2017 12:02

And surely it would give us a better deal that everyone else, since we are so important/close to them.

Why should anyone give a better deal to a member which has constantly whined and whined for better terms, mostly got them - the UK is the only one with a rebate I believe, but am open to correction.Whatever is given is not good enough, and in the end the time comes when patience snaps.

Motheroffourdragons · 19/01/2017 12:02

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TheMartiansAreInvadingUs · 19/01/2017 12:04

The other thing to remember is that the UK is heavily reliant on the top earners (that's your city bankers etc..) for taxes. They are the ones who are giving a heafty part of the tax money to HMRC.
If even half of those people are leaving, what will be left to pay for all those things that will be needed to increase the competitive hedge, have good strong negotiators for the new trade deals etc.... and of course to pay for the NHS??

whatwouldrondo · 19/01/2017 12:04

Well Supermummy having sat at the negotiation table where we were merely negotiating a few tens of millions over a few product streams, rather than the long term economic political and legislative future of an entire country I can assure you that going to the table with a glass half full is no substitute for going to the table with complete knowledge of your sources of power, all the likely outcomes fully costed and understood and a willingness to get your head down to look at the detail. No room for "muddled" thinking. Perhaps it is this Head in the clouds attitude that has you and May thinking it will all be OK when the rest of the world is telling us it will be economic suicide.

TuckersBadLuck · 19/01/2017 12:07

We only have that market, Tucker, because we are in the EU

I think you're misunderstanding me Mother. I'm saying that to the EU we are a market of around 65m relatively affluent people. The EU would be mad not to want access to that market - they do want access to that market.

They can't just roll over and allow us to leave their club on our own terms though, because it would encourage other members to want the same terms.

TheMartiansAreInvadingUs · 19/01/2017 12:07

I am noticing that, again, there is no answer as to why some pro-leave politicians aren't listened to when they are saying they are against TM approach and it was NOT what they wanted with a Leave vote.....

It's as if, saying that there can be other versions of Leaving, just can not be accepted. Or maybe it's too dangerous because they know how shaky the ground is?

TheMartiansAreInvadingUs · 19/01/2017 12:10

But Tuckers when Switzerland did try that, and even though Switzerland is also a big market with very wealthy people, the EU still refused to buldge on the FOM. They had to accept it......

The FOM is one of the corner stone of the EU. Remove that and you might as well destroy the EU.

So yes they get access to the uk market. But I doubt it will be at any cost.

Cailleach1 · 19/01/2017 12:11

'Why are we still arguing basic leave/ remain points with people entirely ignorant of the realities of world trade? :-/'

Well, Farage an ilk are allowed, unchallenged, to say the UK as WTO can do things which are not allowed under WTO rules. Mordaunt tells downright lies 3 or 4 times on TV and is given a job in Gov't.

Only 2 days ago T. Villiers was going on about country of origin and the 'vast' amount of american cars sold into the EU. It took having Barry Gardiner beside her to pick her up on that and say most of the cars sold in EU by American car companies are made in EU and thus not imported into the EU.

Not a 'vast' amount of US cars coming already made across the Atlantic on shipping containers then.

whatwouldrondo · 19/01/2017 12:12

The thing is Supermummy we are already trading with the rest of the world, and indeed, as was previously highlighted, Germany are trading with the rest of the world a lot more. They are able to do that because they have goods other countries want to buy. So do we, the most competitive products we have come from our service industries and science and tech industries. They are about to become a lot less competitive as a result of leaving the EU. So we will lose not just trade with the EU but trade with the rest of the world too. So the question that no Leave voter wants to answer us given we have hobbled our source of competitive advantage what are we going to sell to the rest of the world, to make up for the damage we have done to our existing trade?

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 19/01/2017 12:12

why on earth would you allow one of your members to leave the club, stop paying a subscription and stop abiding by the rules while still giving them the same access to the facilities? That could have only one possible outcome for the future of the club.

^^ because you offer MORE to the club than other members in the first place. Because you need the support in other ways of that member. If you piss the member off and treat the club like a prison you cant leave rather than a flexible great club to be part of. you will damage the club, and all the countries left in it.

Peregrina · 19/01/2017 12:13

Talking of glasses half full - half full of what? Polluted water? Not much of deal. Highest quality wine? Sounds pretty good.

Why can't we get a list out of Leavers (those in power) about what we are going to fill this half glass up with?
Financial services - yesterday's news wasn't good.
Research in Higher Education - already being hobbled by anti-EU prejudice with people getting ready to leave and take the work with them.
What else do we manufacture, which we could sell abroad at a cost which the buyer would be prepared to pay? So far all we have had is tea and jam from Leasdom. I would laugh at her stupidity in confusing the UK with the WI summer fete if it didn't affect the lives of 60 million people.

RedToothBrush · 19/01/2017 12:14

Being Orwellian does not win the argument.

'The Future is Bright. The Future is Orange.'

Freedom is found in silencing your critics.
Control is what the young now have.
Britain is open as our borders are closing.
Patriotism is the virtue of the British but not the Scottish.
Democracy is the will of the majority of people except in NI.
Parliament is sovereign except when it disagrees with the government.
The law must be upheld except if it rules the government is not upholding rights.
The EU needs us more than we need them.

The revolution is complete.

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DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 19/01/2017 12:16

The FOM is one of the corner stone of the EU.

^^ not necessarily loads of papers on this - was it necessary in the first place how essential is it now. Its mainly benefited the poor net contributors - basically the former communist countries - who now don't want to play ball on the migration issue Confused

TheMartiansAreInvadingUs · 19/01/2017 12:16

Ah ... here is an interesting question debbie.
Is the UK a member so interesting for the EU that the EU will be damaged by it leaving?

I haven't heard anyone in the EU mentioning that.
Actually I haven't heard TM and co stating how the EU would be damaged by the UK quietly leaving.
I did hear her say that if she wasn't getting her own way re negociations, then she would start an (economic) war on the EU. But then you only start threatening people when you are scared and have nothing in your hand IMO

Motheroffourdragons · 19/01/2017 12:17

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DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 19/01/2017 12:18

Borders closing Grin - hopefully borders going back to normal before FOM work rights lifted under Blairs government - hardly closing Confused

its staggering we are even reading the phrase " immigration that rights for the UK" - it should have always been immigration that's right for the uk, we should never ever have been put in the position where immigration was wrong and damaging for the UK. Unbelievable.

Other countries - like Canada fight - tooth and nail to protect jobs for Canadians first, through various different channels including onus on the employer.

Bobochic · 19/01/2017 12:19

(a) clubs don't work that way (any special privilege extended to one member must be very limited before resulting in breakdown) (b) the U.K. did a very good job under Margaret Thatcher (who, however anyone might judge her politics, was an exceptional force of nature) of convincing the EU of its special status but many years have passed and our political leaders have no presence at all in the world stage. So negotiating new special privileges has proved impossible and will continue to be so.

cakeycakeface · 19/01/2017 12:20

Does anyone remember an episode of This Week, long before the referendum was held, when the issue of EU reform was discussed. A guest argued that the only way to reform the EU would be to remain in it. Portillo argued that anyone completely serious about wanting the EU to reform (as opposed to totally leave it) should vote leave. He said that would be the only way the EU would reform. I took from it an inference that that way we wouldn't have to actually LEAVE leave.

Is it possible May is aiming for something like that? Clutches at straws.

The other thing, related to the above, what happens if Le Pen wins or makes huge gains in France, to the point issues wrt immigration are massively on the table there too (UKIP didn't have to win to get the Tories promising referendums). Does that also play into the Portillo stance?

And if by some chance massive concessions WERE made wrt immigration, would that be enough to justify a second referendum here. I.e, what Nicola Sturgeon would call a massive change in circumstances.

Just thinking aloud....