to share with you the croudfund link for the new legal action to stop brexit

[MarieBurnham]

www.crowdjustice.org/case/brexit-for-the-100/

I've only given a tenner, but there are plenty of rich people (unless it's all stealth boasting about dipique candles) here, so we should be able to help.

It's currently at 18.507k and needs 70!

Also if you actually bother reading newspapers from other countries in other languages you'll see that no one else is gagging to leave the EU. Indeed there is very little about Brexit in EU papers, other than the odd article on the latest crazy antics.

It's only seen as "Alcatraz" by the frothing press. I do wonder what exactly Paul Dacre is after, other than trying to influence govt policy by whipping his readership into a mad frenzy of hate (because hate it is, just look at the number of exclamation marks in some of the posts). Rupert Murdoch has just benefitted from the lower pound and saved himself a packet buying back Sky.

I've found it shocking how many people I've heard since the referendum whose arguments show that 1) they don't think ordinary people are actually capable of rational decisions and need their betters to make the decision which is for their best interests (they just don't know it) and 2) they don't really believe in democracy anyway.

So i get confused in these threads

Can someone clear something up for me

Is anyone who voted remain a 'remoaner'

Or are 'remoaners' those who still think that we should have stayed

Or are 'remoaners' those who think that our democratically elected parliament and ALL those in the uk should be able to have a say in the process

Or are 'remoaners' those who are actively trying to stop the whole process

And i am quite happy if the question is asked the other way round using the phrase 'brexshitters' which i believe i have also seen on here

Well, actually yes they can suppermummy02! Do you not remember how the coalition government promised (or at least Nick Clegg did) not to increase uni tuition fees?

You can't trust politicians! You can't even trust their party manifestos most of the time! That was one of the most important reasons, for me, for voting Remain! By leaving the EU, we are taking away the moderating influence and the opportunity for appeal to a higher authority.

I was flabbergasted that so many people who felt let down or left behind by government policies, voted in the referendum to give that very government even greater power to enact those very policies! It still doesn't make sense to me.

Obviously you would have to swap some of the sentences around but you know what i mean

actually WT it's quite a strong argument, considering the interests involved in the Leave campaign. At any other time it may have been a weaker argument, but looking at those who are pushing for and who would directly benefit from Brexit I would be very worried indeed.

Just look at what's going on over the Atlantic, the same forces are at work here.

Rufus I think remoaner is really unhelpful. It's just another label that gets in the way of people actually discussing the issues. I wish people wouldn't use it.

I agree wrong

Both words are very unhelpful

I do worry about the future of democracy as people seem to have lost the ability to lose. Look at Remoaners here and Democrats in the USA, happy to undermine the system rather than be on the losing side of a vote. It has happened and we need to get on with things now and stop creating more uncertainty.

As a Leave voter qualified to postgraduate level, I would find the irony of somebody who misspelt crowdfund (as croudfund), Diptyque and en masse claiming those with my viewpoint are uneducated quite funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

80s But what if that higher authority is doing things we don't like (which the EU is: a huge majority of the population were unhappy about the amount of immigration/FOM before the referendum campaign started)?

And again with the remoaners

I do worry about the future of democracy as people seem to have lost the ability to lose

Surely there should be a way to ensure that everyone is listened to and their concerns addressed? It seems that the concerns of the 48% who voted Remain are being sidelined and ignored. And that if you voted Remain, your views aren't important, you are 'other', you are not part of 'the people' and you should basically shut up.

WT, if and when the job opportunities dry up in the UK, fewer people would want to come here. But while we have so many vacancies, we need to fill them somehow. The vast majority of EU migrants come to the UK to work. We need them! Who would do all those jobs otherwise?

Agree with amiaspartacus

I wonder what would have happened if the vote had gone the other way?

I hope that people in power would have recognised that there was a lot of discontent in many parts of the UK and would have taken steps to address those concerns without writing them off.

Maybe they would? We don't know. But this is a divided country and telling half the country they lost so stop moaning is not the way to heal the divisions.

80sMum haven't a clue what you mean. One minor politician broke his promise (for very good reasons) and was voted out of power at the next election, proving democracy works. What is the point you are making?

In fact, I don't think I've heard many politicians acknowledge this division and acknowledge the 48%. It seems like we don't exist anymore except as 'sore losers'.

80s I was using FOM as an example, really, because even though views polarised during the referendum campaign, before that it was a fairly mainstream view in the country that immigration is too high.

But putting the specifics to one side, you are saying that we need the EU as a moderating higher authority, to protect us from the actions of the people we elect to parliament.

But what if the higher authority is not eg protecting workers' rights, but doing something damaging instead? You seem to be saying we need the EU because it is out of our control and "above" our democracy. Well, that's fine if it is enforcing rights, but what if it is enforcing something detrimental on us?

Also if you actually bother reading newspapers from other countries in other languages you'll see that no one else is gagging to leave the EU.
That tells you more about the newspapers than the people of those countries.

But this is a divided country and telling half the country they lost so stop moaning is not the way to heal the divisions

amispartacus* I think your points about politicians not acknowledging the divisions in the country are very true.

I wonder what would have happened if the vote had gone the other way?

Farage said he would demand a second referendum if remain won 52/48.

wrong

Really interested in your take on this

I have been reading an interesting book about geography and stuff...

And one of the things it said was at the end of the chapter of europe and it said that one of the benefits of unity with europe was peace

That really resonated with me.

The rest of the book is scaring the shit out of me

suppermummy02 I was responding to your assertion that the UK government will not repeal legislation that is carried forward from the EU, such as employment rights. You said they couldn't do it because we could vote them out. I contend that the government could in fact do it and I used uni fees as an example of where politicians reneged on their promises. Perhaps it wasn't a particularly good example.

Nick Clegg may have now gone, but the increase in uni fees definitely hasn't! The man was voted out, yes, but not the policy.

By the way, I would hardly call Nick Clegg a "minor politician". He was deputy prime minister at the time!

80sMum
We have elections all the time, the winner rules, the loser shuts the fuck up. For some reason this time the losers are trying to subvert the rule of law.

The government could in fact change employment law, why do you want the EU to to dictate what laws we are allowed to enact?