to share with you the croudfund link for the new legal action to stop brexit

[MarieBurnham]

www.crowdjustice.org/case/brexit-for-the-100/

I've only given a tenner, but there are plenty of rich people (unless it's all stealth boasting about dipique candles) here, so we should be able to help.

It's currently at 18.507k and needs 70!

It doesn't matter who the people who voted were though, richer, poorer, older, younger, its completely irrelevant unless you want to try to give more weighting to peoples votes.

What rubbish! Do you dismiss everything political/historical/economic as being completely irrelevant or just in this case?

Red posted an interesting analysis about trends of who voted what somewhere. I can't find it now though.

I like it when people post 'liberal elite' - it tells you immediately what they are.

What rubbish! Do you dismiss everything political/historical/economic as being completely irrelevant or just in this case?.

It is when that info is used to dismiss people's opinions, or put them down then it is an issue. It has been done on this thread.

I like it when people post 'liberal elite' - it tells you immediately what they are.

Ok I'll bite.

What does it tell you?

It is when that info is used to dismiss people's opinions, or put them down then it is an issue. It has been done on this thread.

Information doesn't become "completely irrelevant" though, even if it's poorly used. To suggest people only want information to try and give more weighting to peoples votes is a bizarre conclusion to draw.

Liberal elite is just more of the same - insults/divisive talk designed to put people down.

If one objects to the "thick, leaver" narrative, (most of us) then surely you'd object to the 'liberal elite' narrative.

The people who post it most have thrown their lot in with the 'men of the people' multi-millionaires Farage who hates 'the lower grades', Jacob Rees-Mogg landed gentry, Boris, a superior cunt.

And yet they still want to call 'the other side' 'elites'??!!! How can anyone say that with a straight-face?

One thing that puzzles me, I have read that age was the biggest predictor of voting, (well, that and supporting the death penalty) with older people voting Leave and younger people voting Remain. Baby-boomers have probably had the most comfortable ride through life in human history, what was so bad they they wanted out of the EU? All my older relatives voted out, but they are all hate filled racist, who want all immigrants booted out, and think that's what they were voting for, so maybe not typical. I heard some academic on the radio talking about this and putting it down to nostalgia for the past and the fact that older people have very little to loose, they already have pension and houses.

The sort of 'rise of the people' Trump/Brexit reminds me of something I read when my children were very little. They are all very close in age, 16 months between the oldest two. I read that children can't feel jealousy below 18 months, they can want the parents attention but are unable to resent the other child for taking that attention. IMO it's the younger child who has it right, the demands should be aimed at the parent dishing out the attention. I think it's similar blaiming immigrants for taking the states attention, I think people are looking at the wrong target. Ultimately, I think corporate greed is the real villain, another thing I read was that all the growth we've had in the economy over the last 25 years has been sucked up by the rich, all of it. This means economic growth is meaningless for most, apart from, I bet in a decline any loss will be paid for by the poor.

Fake those stats have been thoroughly disproved the idea that voting was split across age gaps was based on flawed data from the the last GE not on the Referendum

Interesting point raised earlier, why is this relevant? Are we saying that only/mainly degree educated people voted the 'right' way therefore only those people should be allowed to vote?
Infinite - there were quite a few comments saying just that on Mumsnet just after the referendum.

I wish I could answer the baby-boomer question, because I am one myself, but I voted Remain. My MIL (in her 90s) goes on and on about immigrants, but also voted Remain.

I asked the question about age, because that has been a significant change over the generations with MIL's generation mostly leaving school at 14, a majority of mine leaving at 15, or possibly 16, and only now (say under 40s) expecting to stay in education until 18 and beyond.

With MIL's generation the BIG defining event of their lives had to be the War - it took until about 1965 for my parents to lay it to rest, and I think they were pretty typical. I don't think my generation had anything so life defining.

It is when that info is used to dismiss people's opinions, or put them down then it is an issue

I think it's important to ask WHY certain groups were more likely to vote one why or the other. Only by asking why can we identify the issues and take steps to tackle them.

Why were people who only had a GCSE education much more likely to vote Leave? Probably one factor is the economy and economic issues - worries about the future and being ignored.

Why was age a factor? Is 'nostalgia' a reason for some?

Are some reasons 'more valid' than others - is harking for 'the good old days' less valid than concerns over being ignored economically?

I don't think my generation had anything so life defining

WW2 was 77 years ago. Many baby boomers and many retired people were just babies at the time. They grew up in the 50s and 60s. There's been a lot of social change, education change and social reform in that time - with a lot of the baby boomer generation being responsible for that change They took us into the EU, tackled racism, implemented reforms for women's rights etc.

Fake those stats have been thoroughly disproved the idea that voting was split across age gaps was based on flawed data from the the last GE not on the Referendum

Eh? How on earth do you know which stats Fakename was basing her opinion on?

Yes, Fakename, older people did tend to vote Brexit, younger people voted remain. I don't know why people find this so irksome or 'completely irrelevant'. I think its interesting.

Yes, amispartacus - as I said, I am one of that generation - I was heavily involved with promoting Women's rights and tackling inequalities for example. But none of these dominated the conversation in the way that The War, The War, When I was your age there was a War on, dominated things for my parent's generation. Some of my parents generation have barely been able to speak of what they saw, which may have helped to inform their opinion to stay in the EU, seeing it predominantly about peace. (Others I ought to say, seemed to have had quite a good experience of the War - for MIL it widened her horizons considerably and brought well-paid war work.)

I think it's important to ask WHY certain groups were more likely to vote one why or the other. Only by asking why can we identify the issues and take steps to tackle them

Yes I agree.

Posting videos of Alf Garnett and making snide remarks isn't doing that though.

do you really think that remain voters have a better idea of all of the details of the EU?! if so can we have an informed debate on the European Arrest Warrant, MEP parliamentary immunity etc etc ?!

I think everyone in the UK had an ideas of what life would be like with the status quo, the only people who gave me a reason to leave gave reasons of

"It will stop all the foreigners coming here"

And, "I voted to be in the common market, not the EU"

As no one had or indeed does have an idea of what Brexit means then no one voting actually knew/knows.

Posting videos of Alf Garnett and making snide remarks isn't doing that though

Alf Garnett is interesting though - although I think that's separate to the EU issue Alf Garnett is supposed to be a parody. Written in times which were changing. Yet a lot of his attitudes are coming back. People 'saying it how it is', a fight back against 'PC gone mad', the demonising of certain groups...'Alf Garnett' has never gone away - and I do think that the rise of people like Farage, Trump and the backlash and rise of nationalism across Europe is something that needs to be discussed.

Alf Garnett would have voted Leave. Not because of the economic issues but he would have had concerns over immigration - although he would probably have expressed it differently. I bet there are a lot of 'Alf Garnetts' out there who feel much more comfortable now expressing their opinions without worrying about 'PC gone mad'

I think everyone in the UK had an ideas of what life would be like with the status quo

That's the thing though. Even as a remain voter I knew I wasn't voting for the status quo.

It won't remain the same. It certainly isn't the same now as it was 10/15 years ago.

amispartacus I agree if it was to be used in that way

It wasn't though. It was posted to have a pop at people.

Everyone thought Alf Garnett was an ironic dig at a dying mindset. It turns out he was prophesy of things to come

That's the response someone made. The dying mindset turns out not to be so true - just look at the DM and other commentators. Alf Garnett's mindset has not gone away - but has been given permission to resurface.

Do you think that "Alf Garnett's mindset" has gone away - or has resurfaced?

It was posted to have a pop at people

I don't think so. I think that Alf Garnett has resurfaced and is just as vocal.

Alf Garnett certainly seems to have been very busy on Twitter and the btl comments sections lately.

43% of people with a degree voted leave

Do you mean that of those that voted that had a degree, 43% voted leave? (Because that isn't what you said. )

Yes HeCant, I was incorrect and meant to say what you said.

Alf Garnett certainly seems to have been very busy on Twitter and the btl comments sections lately

If Alf Garnett was updated for today, he'd be very busy on the comments section of certain papers and probably believing certain news stories...

For me, the reason how many people with a degree etc etc voted leave is important is because

1. I think the demographic differences in leave/remain voting are often massively over stated and

2. there seems to be a subtle attempt to kind of undermine the value of some people's vote. As in, "leave wouldn't have got a majority without the old/unemployed/northern/pick your group vote" as if this has any relevance at all.

Remain would have got no where near the vote it did without the middle class metropolitan vote but I never hear anyone putting that forward as an argument for anything.

It's usually quite subtly done. Not always, all the "young people's views matter more than older people's is part of the same attitude. (It was less subtle with Trump when many people seemed to be veering towards saying that the votes of older white working class men shouldn't count).

So I think you can argue against this two ways. One is to point out that where people are drifting towards valuing some people's votes more than others. The second is to point out that the demographic correlations are really not as clear cut as many think.

The group you hardly hear mentioned for the Leave vote is the southern England Tories. Similarly, you rarely hear about how UKIP came second in many Tory southern English seats. These fit the caricature of the Little Englander, who wish that the sun had never set on the Empire.

The dialogue is always about slagging off Labour voters, (and no, I don't vote Labour, I am just fed up with hearing the constant criticism of them.)