Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:03

Its twelve days to go until the end of the HoC 2016 calendar and we can already tell that everyone is wishing it was Christmas already. Poor Theresa though, she doesn’t get to play with toys on the last day of term. Instead she has a grilling on the lack of spending on health and social care spending by a commons select committee.

Hopefully the next couple of weeks will calm down a little though as thoughts turn elsewhere.

The A50 case has come to an end. There is no way of telling which way the judges will go but the decision to appeal may yet haunt the government as it will bring the issue of devolution to a head, whether they win or lose. The ruling is due in mid January.

Win and they are going to have to amend the Devolution Acts and potentially impose Brexit on people with certain national identities who voted against it. This is profoundly undemocratic and a betrayal of the principles of Devolution and the expectations of the will of the people.
Lose and they could face a full blown constitutional crisis, with NI or Scotland or both having a veto over Brexit, and the government effectively unable to trigger a50 in line with our constitutional requirement. Which is again, potentially profoundly undemocratic and against the referendum and the expectations of the will of the people.

It was a scenario that predictable and avoidable at several junctions yet the government under Cameron and May ploughed on regardless. It a scenario that we are now locked into, due to deciding to use the courts rather than just go through parliament.

It could also massively restrict the power of the executive under the Royal Prerogative. Ironically this is something that David Davis has campaigned for, for years so I guess he gets a victory however the decision goes.
So the chances of some kind of crisis with regard to our constitutional makeup and the union seem inevitable in the new year.

The government despite a defeat in Richmond Park continues to lean right and characterise anyone with concerns as unpatriotic or not honourable. This is the last resort of the desperate.

They have however, conceded to Labour that they will publish a report on their Brexit plans before a50 is triggered. In return Labour have promised that they will let a50 be triggered by the end of March. Is this a good thing? It remains to be seen. In some ways this is a blinder for Labour.

They are pro-Brexit but anti-lack of plan in theory. This only works if the plan actually has substance. If there is no substance in the plan and its nothing more than empty words then they face having to go back on a commons vote committing them to a deal with the Conservatives. It could therefore be a trap for them. It marginalises the none English Nationalist voices too. Voices that are important and deserve to be heard. Voices that if they are not listened to, will have consequences.

What will the Sleaford and North Hykenham (yep again) by election bring?

A vote of confidence in the government, a new ever growing and rising fear of UKIP or something else. How will this colour the start to the New Year?

I don’t know. 2016 has apparently been the year of gin as people turn to the drink to cope. Everything is now Brexitty and Red, White and Blue.
But whose’s? Britain’s? The USA’s? Russia’s? Or France’s?

We look forward to, or more to the point we fear what 2017 could bring. A feeling we have not felt to this degree in many years. A General Election with a UKIP breakthrough. The end of peace in NI. A repeat of the age old betrayal of Scotland’s by the English. The Welsh damned to irrelevance and marginalisation. Brexit vettoed and the subsequent political fallout. The end of the NHS. A bonfire of rights. A new Italian PM and possibly new Eurozone economic crisis. Fillon or Le Pen and at last a real victory for the far right in Europe. The chance of Merkel’s Last Stand. Putin’s partnership with Assad and a new genocide we are powerless to stop. Erdogan pulling the plug on the EU door and unleashing a new wave of refugees onto European shores. The horror of ISIS both within the West and within the Middle East. Trump’s neo-fascism and rise of a New World Order. There is something in there for everyone to dread.

Which will it be? Probably something we have not yet foreseen such are these times.

Act 2 of Brexit in Westminstenders land is bound to be just as dramatic and of course, we leave 2016 in true soap fashion on a real cliff hanger.

All the more reason to enjoy the holiday period and break whatever your politics.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
MangoMoon · 10/12/2016 16:39

Merry, that was my point - the country is split roughly down the middle.

I watched it with my Leaver mind & my own prejudice & perspective - others watch with theirs.

My point was more geared towards if you want to understand Farage's appeal to what is a very large chunk of the population.

Wrt Farage making a clear point about McDonald's- yes he did, very clear, in direct response to something an audience member said.

Unicornsarelovely · 10/12/2016 16:41

It is probably much easier for politicians 'to tell the truth' and speak directly to people when they're a minority party or not actually a politician anymore.

Look at the MP who was in the dept of transport and left to deal with southern rail. Or a minister sensibly changes his mind and the press shriek 'u-turn' like it's a bad thing...

MitzyLeFrouf · 10/12/2016 16:41

'People want to be told the truth - not finessed with platitudes or 'The Message'.'

Forgive me but are you saying that Farage and his ilk told people the truth? Seriously?

MangoMoon · 10/12/2016 16:42

RTB, wrt politicians having to toe the party line - I agree, but also, that's why Boris is so popular amongst many (not normally political) people.

He is seen as someone who 'tells it straight' - especially off the back of this latest Saudi thing.

Whether he does actually 'tell it straight' or not is largely irrelevant - he is perceived to.

MangoMoon · 10/12/2016 16:43

Mitzy - you completely miss my point.
No, I'm not saying that at all.

Mistigri · 10/12/2016 16:43

Farage's appeal to what is a very large chunk of the population.

12% and falling.

RedToothBrush · 10/12/2016 16:45

If this country is so split down the middle, why do I agree with you on certain points Mango?

Who wants us all to believe that there is this them and us thing that's so impossible to deal with?

Not buying it. Yes there are these divides some of them are incredibly difficult to deal with but as a society are we divided neatly into two camps?

OP posts:
MitzyLeFrouf · 10/12/2016 16:46

OK in that case I'll have a read of your post later and see if your point is a bit clearer.

MangoMoon · 10/12/2016 16:47

I give up.

Carry on handwringing about 'Why?!' Brexit, Trump, Farage, Post Truth Politics etc.

If you actually really truly want to understand Why?! then you have to step outside your own bubble.

It's not about Farage the man - it's about what has changed, and why, and what it is that Farage represents.

MangoMoon · 10/12/2016 16:49

If this country is so split down the middle, why do I agree with you on certain points Mango?

Because there is no 'them & us' - because there are shades.

The split down the middle was in direct reference to the Referendum.

Unicornsarelovely · 10/12/2016 16:53

People like Farage are very good at boiling difficult situations down in such a way that they seem easy, clear and don't make people feel inadequate and bigoted. Labour need to learn again how to do this!

RedToothBrush · 10/12/2016 16:58

Yep. My point exactly Mango. One that's not being reflected by politicians or the media well.

If anything the only ones who are taking this approach are Labour... and that's not really working for them as the only issue IS Brexit.

Farage represents the things we don't want to hear and he manipulates it and twists it into a monster that turns us off even more. He winds people up to act in a way that aggravates others. And as a result gains more support because we stop listening...

This makes him a grubby little opportunist but he can only do that, if he has the freedom and ability to do that.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 10/12/2016 17:04

The split down the middle is being exacerbated by the way that Theresa May is handling the situation. She has totally ignored the 48% who voted Remain, and also those who favour an EEA agreement (which used to number Farage, don't forget) She could be looking for what both sides had in common. Most people would be happy with more money for the NHS. I would imagine that a significant majority would want EU citizens already here to be guaranteed the right to remain. Those are just two things off the top of my head.

NotDavidTennant · 10/12/2016 17:06

If you actually really truly want to understand Why?! then you have to step outside your own bubble.

It's not that we don't understand, it's that we don't agree.

WrongTrouser · 10/12/2016 17:06

If remainers are sneering at leavers, most of the responsibility for that lies with Farage

This has made me feel quite cross. There is one Farage and more than 17 million leave voters. If people base their low opinions of a group if people en masse based on the behaviour of one (or a small group), they need to take responsibility for this. I'm no fan of NF but people who sterotype and label are responsible themselves for this behavior.

Castelnaumansions · 10/12/2016 17:08

I agree unicorns and mango
Farage is brilliant at this. He plays an excellent game. He and Banks play with the media and educated, see Red's v good post on Banks and Beard in last thread. He and trump also won a lot of support by old fashioned town hall, arena work. They simply built up a really strong, broad base through rallies and 'speeches' , it wasn't just breitbart and crackers on the internet that got them where they are. They're just astute and better at it than the rest. I've not seen the McD bit yet, but it sounds like a set up, like the Romans and Beard thing. Self writes for New Statesman on food culture, so he may have brought that to bear on his comments. It sounds like an open goal again for the ukips.

merrymouse · 10/12/2016 17:11

I agree Peregrina, but would the Mail accept it if she tried to find common ground? Afterall she is/was a remainer. Look how they reacted to the judges.

May's strategy seems to be very much distancing herself from Cameron an appealing to the Mail. Was there another possible political strategy? Can politicians ignore the Mail?

MarjorieSimpson · 10/12/2016 17:12

mango I agree with yoUr analysis.

I get what you are saying about some poloiticians giving answers for certain part of the popula toon. I do wonder though who are these 'people' that have their questions answered by Farage?
And what are the questions that get no clear answers from other politicians so Farage's answers end up being attractive to people who might actually not be that right wing?

Mistigri · 10/12/2016 17:12

People like Farage are very good at boiling difficult situations down in such a way that they seem easy, clear and don't make people feel inadequate and bigoted. Labour need to learn again how to do this!

It's not possible to present complex cases both simply and truthfully. You can choose either/ or but not both. Farage has no shame, which is an advantage in post-truth politics.

I take issue with the idea that he represents a majority though; this is a man who has stood for parliament on several occasions without ever being elected, whose party has 1 MP and a falling share in opinion polls.

Farage's skill has been in monopolising the media conversation about immigration (with the help of fascist tabloid owners and the Beeb's false balance) - forcing other politicians into political space formerly occupied by the BNP. But I do not see any evidence that he is personally popular with a majority of British people. If he was, he'd have romped home in kipper-friendly territory in Thanet.

Peregrina · 10/12/2016 17:18

I agree Peregrina, but would the Mail accept it if she tried to find common ground?

A better, more able PM than May, would be able to do this. I am not holding my breath - candidates for PM with ability were and are thin on the ground.

merrymouse · 10/12/2016 17:22

They're just astute and better at it than the rest.

And they tell people what they want to hear whether it is possible or not. That is basically Trump's entire business strategy.

On the other hand Banks and Farage have never actually had to govern, and neither has Trump, till now. (In theory Farage does have a job in government in Europe, but we all know how dedicated he is to that!).

If you are a working politician in parliament trying to implement actual policies, it's more difficult to sell unicorns.

merrymouse · 10/12/2016 17:28

I'm no fan of NF but people who sterotype and label are responsible themselves for this behavior.

But at the moment, nobody in government is trying to communicate to the 48% and Farage is very, very loud.

(Partly due to the producers of question time giving him a voice - but presumably he is still complaining about the 'MSM'.)

Where are the government voices trying to convince Remainers? Apparently they are too concerned about making a misstep and enraging the Mail.

Castelnaumansions · 10/12/2016 17:28

'neither has Trump till now' www.wnd.com/2016/12/michael-moore-its-possible-trump-wont-become-president/ Sure you've all seen this and clasping at straws but, wonder if he is selfless enough to put in the work to even do the job!

merrymouse · 10/12/2016 17:31

mango, how did he explain the advantages of Britain being attractive to companies wanting to pay less tax? I thought this was deeply unpopular with voters?

(Shamelessly taking advantage of mango to avoid watching...)

birdybirdywoofwoof · 10/12/2016 17:34

Yes, agree with David tennant
We do 'understand'-there is no great mystery about the appeal of farage - we just don't agree.