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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:03

Its twelve days to go until the end of the HoC 2016 calendar and we can already tell that everyone is wishing it was Christmas already. Poor Theresa though, she doesn’t get to play with toys on the last day of term. Instead she has a grilling on the lack of spending on health and social care spending by a commons select committee.

Hopefully the next couple of weeks will calm down a little though as thoughts turn elsewhere.

The A50 case has come to an end. There is no way of telling which way the judges will go but the decision to appeal may yet haunt the government as it will bring the issue of devolution to a head, whether they win or lose. The ruling is due in mid January.

Win and they are going to have to amend the Devolution Acts and potentially impose Brexit on people with certain national identities who voted against it. This is profoundly undemocratic and a betrayal of the principles of Devolution and the expectations of the will of the people.
Lose and they could face a full blown constitutional crisis, with NI or Scotland or both having a veto over Brexit, and the government effectively unable to trigger a50 in line with our constitutional requirement. Which is again, potentially profoundly undemocratic and against the referendum and the expectations of the will of the people.

It was a scenario that predictable and avoidable at several junctions yet the government under Cameron and May ploughed on regardless. It a scenario that we are now locked into, due to deciding to use the courts rather than just go through parliament.

It could also massively restrict the power of the executive under the Royal Prerogative. Ironically this is something that David Davis has campaigned for, for years so I guess he gets a victory however the decision goes.
So the chances of some kind of crisis with regard to our constitutional makeup and the union seem inevitable in the new year.

The government despite a defeat in Richmond Park continues to lean right and characterise anyone with concerns as unpatriotic or not honourable. This is the last resort of the desperate.

They have however, conceded to Labour that they will publish a report on their Brexit plans before a50 is triggered. In return Labour have promised that they will let a50 be triggered by the end of March. Is this a good thing? It remains to be seen. In some ways this is a blinder for Labour.

They are pro-Brexit but anti-lack of plan in theory. This only works if the plan actually has substance. If there is no substance in the plan and its nothing more than empty words then they face having to go back on a commons vote committing them to a deal with the Conservatives. It could therefore be a trap for them. It marginalises the none English Nationalist voices too. Voices that are important and deserve to be heard. Voices that if they are not listened to, will have consequences.

What will the Sleaford and North Hykenham (yep again) by election bring?

A vote of confidence in the government, a new ever growing and rising fear of UKIP or something else. How will this colour the start to the New Year?

I don’t know. 2016 has apparently been the year of gin as people turn to the drink to cope. Everything is now Brexitty and Red, White and Blue.
But whose’s? Britain’s? The USA’s? Russia’s? Or France’s?

We look forward to, or more to the point we fear what 2017 could bring. A feeling we have not felt to this degree in many years. A General Election with a UKIP breakthrough. The end of peace in NI. A repeat of the age old betrayal of Scotland’s by the English. The Welsh damned to irrelevance and marginalisation. Brexit vettoed and the subsequent political fallout. The end of the NHS. A bonfire of rights. A new Italian PM and possibly new Eurozone economic crisis. Fillon or Le Pen and at last a real victory for the far right in Europe. The chance of Merkel’s Last Stand. Putin’s partnership with Assad and a new genocide we are powerless to stop. Erdogan pulling the plug on the EU door and unleashing a new wave of refugees onto European shores. The horror of ISIS both within the West and within the Middle East. Trump’s neo-fascism and rise of a New World Order. There is something in there for everyone to dread.

Which will it be? Probably something we have not yet foreseen such are these times.

Act 2 of Brexit in Westminstenders land is bound to be just as dramatic and of course, we leave 2016 in true soap fashion on a real cliff hanger.

All the more reason to enjoy the holiday period and break whatever your politics.

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Thread gallery
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BuntyFigglesworthSpiffington · 09/12/2016 21:02

His ego knows no bounds!

He's so desperate to be in Trump's employ that soon he'll be offering to be Chief Exec in Charge of Car Bumper Stickers at Trump's fan club.

merrymouse · 09/12/2016 21:51

I thought the general opinion was that Richmond Park isn't at all representative of the country in general, but that there are a few similar seats in places where the Tories could be vulnerable. Sleaford isn't one of them - hence no visit (as far as I know) from Bob Geldof, and far more limited campaigning from lib dems.

I don't think nearly as many people would have voted for the lib dems in Richmond Park if they hadn't been galvanised by the idea that the byelection was winnable. It's difficult to get excited about a safe seat, and turnout was much lower in Sleaford than in Richmond Park.

Whatever the results of these byelections, no other seats are up for grabs at the moment, and the situation will presumably have moved on in 2020

SwedishEdith · 09/12/2016 21:58

.

howabout · 09/12/2016 22:05

Thanks for coming back to me on the Supreme Court Red. Interesting to see the argument from the opposite point of bias to mine.

The difference in my analysis of Scotland would hang on the fact that power is devolved to Holyrood but Holyrood is NOT the government of Scotland in this regard. Scotland still has over 50 MPs at Westminster and that it where we make our case. To take the view oft espoused by NS and co, even allowing for the Sewell convention, is to undermine the legal and political position of Scotland as part of the UK.

The most damaging effect on the Scottish psyche imo was the view that Gordon Brown was "too Scottish" to be UK PM.

I also think at least as many Scots as voted NO in Indyref1 value UK over EU membership and recent polling supports this presumption. Bear in mind that about 30% of SNP voters admit to voting Brexit - my personal suspicion is that the SNP Brexit figure is actually far higher.

prettybird · 09/12/2016 22:13

Lots of interesting reading.

Wasn't the government warned against appealing, precisely because of the constitutional can of worms it would open, where heads I lose, tails you win, (interesting counterpoint to everlasting cake "have your cake and eat it" Wink), whatever the outcome? In that respect, I say, "Hell mend 'em" for their hubris Hmm

howabout · 09/12/2016 22:22

Thing is prettybird I think if they hadn't appealed the High Court ruling had already left them hostage to fortune because the questions were already out there and hopefully the decision either way will settle things somewhat.

I personally think both the Devolution settlement, the Smith Commission negotiations and EVEL are not stable even without Brexit. Interesting that KD is starting to talk about a Federal settlement and I think this is a strong position for the LP to take.

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 23:02

howabout, the problem is that half of the argument is going to be really pissed off if the constitutional argument doesn't go their way.

I think the situation for NI is more extreme than the one for Scotland so that is going to be particularly messy.

Either way the government can only solve that by making sure that something rather large is done to deal with this problem mitigate and appease the losing group. I don't see how.

All the noise suggests, they don't either, and its the last thing on their minds re:Brexit planning and priorities.

I really don't think they have progressed at all to planning for devolution problems anymore than they did prior to June when all these concerns were first raised (and wilfully ignored) during the referendum campaign itself.

Anyway. Here's another spanner in the works breaking this evening, which was rumoured might happen a week or two ago. Looks like it is now got legs and is being actively pursued:
www.ft.com/content/a271c0a2-be2d-11e6-8b45-b8b81dd5d080
Lawyers aim for fresh legal challenge to Brexit process in Dublin
Lawsuit likely to ask Irish courts for referral to European Court of Justice

The lawsuit is likely to ask the Irish courts to make a referral to the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg on two legal questions.

The first is whether the official Article 50 notification that the UK is leaving the EU can be withdrawn by the UK once it has been invoked; the second, whether triggering Article 50 also means Britain automatically ceases to be a member of the European Economic Area. The EEA consists of the 28 member states plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway; all are part of the EU single market.

Jolyon Maugham QC, a tax barrister, on Friday launched a crowdfunding appeal to raise £70,000 to bring the lawsuit on behalf of as yet unnamed claimants and with the Irish state and the European Commission as defendants.

^It would allege that the Irish government has colluded in a breach of EU treaties by excluding the UK from meetings of the EU Council.
If the case reaches the ECJ, UK Eurosceptics are likely to be enraged by the prospect of European judges having the power to rule on the reversibility of Article 50.^

It would also fuel speculation about an early election and intensify pro-EU campaigners’ demands for a second referendum on the eventual Brexit deal.

That's going to go down well...

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HesterThrale · 09/12/2016 23:03

News just released by Jo Maugham of a new Brexit challenge in the Irish High Court:

waitingfortax.com/2016/12/09/new-brexit-challenge-in-the-irish-high-court/

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 23:09

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
If you think - Leaver or Remainer - that knowing where we're going is a good thing you can fund the action here

Liam Blizard @LiamBlizard
@JolyonMaugham @CrowdJustice I'll fund that. I'm a leaver but having a revocable A50, would be useful leverage in A50 negotiations

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
If you're a Leaver who wants to get on with it, establishing that Article 50 is irrevocable will put all talk of a second referendum to bed.

www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/brexit-irish-high-court-action-to-clarify-article-50-1.2900367#.WEs3fNP41mc.twitter
Irish Times version of the story.

news.sky.com/story/second-legal-challenge-to-brexit-could-be-tabled-in-irish-courts-10689932
And a Sky interview with Maugham on why its being done.

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lalalonglegs · 09/12/2016 23:09

Bring it on, Jolyon Grin.

Dapplegrey1 · 09/12/2016 23:44

Red toothbrush why can't people with "a long ancestral history" be normal ordinary people?
The idea of Alastair Campbell complaining about other people telling lies is a good one.

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 23:50

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Imagine: a sort of referendum where the Article 50 notification is revoked if majority of UK citizens also take EU citizenship....

If its good enough for Nige...

David Allen Green also has a great ft piece on the Supreme Court Case which is well worth reading:
www.ft.com/content/83965752-f008-39e0-a039-48a43c508266
Five things we learnt from the Supreme Court Article 50 hearing

(quick reminder if you are paywalled out by the ft, google the title of the article Wink)

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RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 23:52

I meant a long ancestral history in the context of political dynasties and upper class economic or social background. But tried to abbreviate somewhat.

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BigChocFrenzy · 10/12/2016 00:24

Demonstrating again that these threads are not a hive mind Wink I disagree with you, red about Labour's performance.

The Official Opposition should be building on a GE 2nd place in byelections, not dropping to 4th and shedding 40% of their vote, scrambling to save deposits.
It would be ok if these 2 bad results were because of exceptional circumstances

However, they aren't and they are alongside the terrible national polls.
Labour has 2 fundamental problems which will affect every future byelection and the next GE, as long as Jezza is leader:

  1. Jezza himself - most voters don't consider him fit to be PM

  2. Policy - Jezza has managed to piss off nearly everyone, by having the "worst of all worlds" combination of policies:
    Remainers feel betrayed by his hasty abandonment of them, while his open door immigration policy repels Brexiters (and Remainers probably aren't any keener than Leavers on increasing MENA immigration)

So, looks like the Labour vote will continue to be squeezed from all sides and the Labour Party will continue its loss of infulence & relevance at this crucial time for the UK.

John Harris analyses Labour's malaise & prospects:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/09/sleaford-byelection-labour-52-48-brexit

BigChocFrenzy · 10/12/2016 00:52

YouGov’s latest national voting intention figures (fieldwork 4-5 Dec): CON 42%, LAB 25%, LDEM 11%, UKIP 12%, GRN 4%

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulusuploads/document/bg3iahmaw8/TimesResultss161205VIITrackers_W.pdf

The Scottish sample contained there was v small, but for what it's worth:
SNP 50% : Con 26% : Lab 12% : LD 6% : UKIP 5% : Green 2%

TuckersBadLuck · 10/12/2016 01:58

"low-grade people" Really??

I'm possibly too drunk to think about that seriously but if he actually said that it's huge isn't it?

Kaija · 10/12/2016 07:57

Tucker, I believe he did say that, but he's said worse so I don't suppose it will have any impact. Lesson of Trump and Farage seems to be that once you've established your reputation as man who tells it how it is (and I doubt it would work for a woman) you can say literally anything. The more vile the utterance the more your reputation for plain speaking and "authenticity" is bolstered.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/12/2016 07:59

Happy birthday, Spartacus !

Kirk Douglas was 100 yesterday and remains amazingly active.
These (last month) are his thoughts & fears for the future:

"I've lived through the horrors of a Great Depression and two World Wars, the second of which was started by a man who promised that he would restore his country it to its former greatness.

I was 16 when that man came to power in 1933.

For almost a decade before his rise he was laughed at ― not taken seriously.

He was seen as a buffoon who couldn’t possibly deceive an educated, civilized population with his nationalistic, hateful rhetoric.

The "experts" dismissed him as a joke. They were wrong."

https://www.indy100.com/article/kirk-douglas-donald-trump-letter-7466021?utmsource=indy&utmmmedium=top5&utmcampaign=i100

Kaija · 10/12/2016 07:59

Thanks, red, for that great David Allen Green article. I had almost given up all hope of understanding the Supreme Court case but it's all starting to make sense now.

Unicornsarelovely · 10/12/2016 08:54

http://forward.com/culture/356537/why-times-trump-cover-is-a-subversive-work-of-political-art/

Interesting link above on the Donald Trump cover in Time magazine and how the 'message' is more subversive than it might appear.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/12/2016 09:43

Anyone tried the new wargame "You Brexit, you Fix it"

http://www.matrixgames.com/store/640/Command.Live

Your kind of game, red - or did you create it ? Grin

whatwouldrondo · 10/12/2016 10:34

unicorns enjoyed that article, and the thought of the photographer posing it. How did he get Trump to sit in a shabby chair? it must be material for an SNL sketch.....

RedToothBrush · 10/12/2016 11:03

Haha brexit you fix it. I had to double check to see if it was real or a spoof.

Unicorn the trump cover is v interesting because of what I did as part of my degree. I did a number of art history modules in addition to looking at semiology as part of my media ones.

It taught to understanding layers of meaning put into an image that give you an impression that you are not necessarily aware of as well as being party to almost a secret language that is deliberate for other who understand it to read and see. I'm no where near clever enough to do it myself deliberately. And to honest I've never been terribly good at spotting it, and understanding it without help (as interesting as it was to study I also fucking hated it as it was difficult and it's pretentious and annoying at times. It was one of my least favourite subjects)

Italian Renaissance art was particularly guilty of this with many uses of Christian symbolism placed within in it. I don't like the aesthetics of much of this art nor am I religious so being taught how to access what the painter is saying really helped access it and think it wasn't all bollocks which just looks horrible! It's also very clever (some might say too clever).

The trouble is its very elitist in what it does. Deliberately so. Which plays into the liberal elite thing. And it also illustrates how subversion other media can be and you never know. This is an important image so clever people are explaining it. Most examples pass us all by but affect us more than we realise.

I also think the Trump image has shades of bond villian about it. Which I think perhaps is much easier for everyone to grasp and spot. This is much more my level!

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HesterThrale · 10/12/2016 12:31

What's this all about? Surely this can't be known already?

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/10/supreme-court-brexit-appeal-judges-heading-split-7-4-decision/amp/?client=safari

Castelnaumansions · 10/12/2016 12:34

Thanks red, stunning thread. Smile