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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:03

Its twelve days to go until the end of the HoC 2016 calendar and we can already tell that everyone is wishing it was Christmas already. Poor Theresa though, she doesn’t get to play with toys on the last day of term. Instead she has a grilling on the lack of spending on health and social care spending by a commons select committee.

Hopefully the next couple of weeks will calm down a little though as thoughts turn elsewhere.

The A50 case has come to an end. There is no way of telling which way the judges will go but the decision to appeal may yet haunt the government as it will bring the issue of devolution to a head, whether they win or lose. The ruling is due in mid January.

Win and they are going to have to amend the Devolution Acts and potentially impose Brexit on people with certain national identities who voted against it. This is profoundly undemocratic and a betrayal of the principles of Devolution and the expectations of the will of the people.
Lose and they could face a full blown constitutional crisis, with NI or Scotland or both having a veto over Brexit, and the government effectively unable to trigger a50 in line with our constitutional requirement. Which is again, potentially profoundly undemocratic and against the referendum and the expectations of the will of the people.

It was a scenario that predictable and avoidable at several junctions yet the government under Cameron and May ploughed on regardless. It a scenario that we are now locked into, due to deciding to use the courts rather than just go through parliament.

It could also massively restrict the power of the executive under the Royal Prerogative. Ironically this is something that David Davis has campaigned for, for years so I guess he gets a victory however the decision goes.
So the chances of some kind of crisis with regard to our constitutional makeup and the union seem inevitable in the new year.

The government despite a defeat in Richmond Park continues to lean right and characterise anyone with concerns as unpatriotic or not honourable. This is the last resort of the desperate.

They have however, conceded to Labour that they will publish a report on their Brexit plans before a50 is triggered. In return Labour have promised that they will let a50 be triggered by the end of March. Is this a good thing? It remains to be seen. In some ways this is a blinder for Labour.

They are pro-Brexit but anti-lack of plan in theory. This only works if the plan actually has substance. If there is no substance in the plan and its nothing more than empty words then they face having to go back on a commons vote committing them to a deal with the Conservatives. It could therefore be a trap for them. It marginalises the none English Nationalist voices too. Voices that are important and deserve to be heard. Voices that if they are not listened to, will have consequences.

What will the Sleaford and North Hykenham (yep again) by election bring?

A vote of confidence in the government, a new ever growing and rising fear of UKIP or something else. How will this colour the start to the New Year?

I don’t know. 2016 has apparently been the year of gin as people turn to the drink to cope. Everything is now Brexitty and Red, White and Blue.
But whose’s? Britain’s? The USA’s? Russia’s? Or France’s?

We look forward to, or more to the point we fear what 2017 could bring. A feeling we have not felt to this degree in many years. A General Election with a UKIP breakthrough. The end of peace in NI. A repeat of the age old betrayal of Scotland’s by the English. The Welsh damned to irrelevance and marginalisation. Brexit vettoed and the subsequent political fallout. The end of the NHS. A bonfire of rights. A new Italian PM and possibly new Eurozone economic crisis. Fillon or Le Pen and at last a real victory for the far right in Europe. The chance of Merkel’s Last Stand. Putin’s partnership with Assad and a new genocide we are powerless to stop. Erdogan pulling the plug on the EU door and unleashing a new wave of refugees onto European shores. The horror of ISIS both within the West and within the Middle East. Trump’s neo-fascism and rise of a New World Order. There is something in there for everyone to dread.

Which will it be? Probably something we have not yet foreseen such are these times.

Act 2 of Brexit in Westminstenders land is bound to be just as dramatic and of course, we leave 2016 in true soap fashion on a real cliff hanger.

All the more reason to enjoy the holiday period and break whatever your politics.

OP posts:
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whatwouldrondo · 13/12/2016 12:48

The issue of stereotyping Brits is very relevant to the success of trade with the rest of the world post Brexit.

One of the first things you have to overcome in building business relationships, and indeed personal ones if you are a migrant elsewhere in the world is the perception that the British are arrogant and entitled, and a residual resentment of whatever the consequences of Empire were in that part of the world. Whatever the historical arguments about the benefits or otherwise of Empire I have rarely heard it perceived as a good thing.

Post Brexit UKPLC has a big rebranding exercise to pull off. It has not started well kicking our neighbour in the teeth in what it regarded from all but the most right wing of regimes as an irrational act of self destruction. and putting jingoistic flag wavers who play fully to the stereotype in charge of diplomacy and trade. Just thinking about it plunges me into shame and sadness.

Peregrina · 13/12/2016 12:55

The EU has been such a convenient whipping boy for so many things which are wrong with this country, for the last 25 years or so, so I wonder who will get blamed when or if we do leave?

whatwouldrondo · 13/12/2016 12:57

Marjorie A lot of the EU workers here that would routinely termed migrant do not necessarily want to stay here for life, nor does the fact that you go to a country for a limited period of time preclude you from becoming part of the community there, learning the language and about the culture.

The term expat, and I am guilty myself, is actually a label utilised by professional middle class people to distinguish their community from that of other immigrants. End of.

whatwouldrondo · 13/12/2016 12:58

Peregrina It will still be the EU, for having been so mean in negotiations. And immigrants, even if the number arriving is down to zero.

Peregrina · 13/12/2016 13:02

..... if you are a migrant elsewhere in the world is the perception that the British are arrogant and entitled, and a residual resentment of whatever the consequences of Empire were in that part of the world.

Yes, indeed. It came as quite a shock to me when I started travelling in the 1970s to find out that the British were not universally admired as a nation. It didn't fit the narrative we had been fed growing up in the 50s and 60s.

As ron says, we have a huge rebranding exercise to do. It has not started well in India with their desire for more visas - it needs more than fine words about "a country which works for everyone".

TheNorthRemembers · 13/12/2016 13:33

I think we could put together the Oxford dictionary entries for expat and immigrant. Small aside: UK person in Spain in the Daily Mail is always an expat.

Bolshybookworm · 13/12/2016 13:53

Sodding Farage on the world at 1 again. Why are they giving airtime to this poisonous twerp, his views represents a fairly small proportion of the country and he is neither an elected MP or leader of a political party.

I am sick to the back teeth of him and every other politician who bandies about wild ideas on hard Brexit with no recourse to what will happen to people's jobs. There are many people like me, who's work is heavily reliant on us maintaining European standards and regulations. What are we supposed to do in this "brave new world", just up sticks and leave? Retrain for all these amazing manufacturing jobs that will magically appear?

Farage, Rees-mogg, Duncan Smith and Redwood care for one thing and one alone. Themselves. They could not give a shiny shit about the British population. Duncan smith has already shown this with his work on universal credit. And using the poor and deprived as your excuse- urgh. Unforgivable.

The vote shouldn't have asked us if we wanted to leave the EU, it should have asked "Are you happy for the loony right of Tory party to completely restructure our economy?". At least then people might have realised what they were voting for.

Keir Starmer my one glimmer of hope today.

Kaija · 13/12/2016 13:57

Couldn't agree more bolshy

Bolshybookworm · 13/12/2016 13:59

Just having one of those days Z here I need to rant, Kaija Angry

Bolshybookworm · 13/12/2016 14:02

*where

So grumpy I can't type properly Blush

usuallydormant · 13/12/2016 14:17

Speaking as an economic migrant, the expat thing drives me nuts. Yes there are expats who work for international companies, move countries every five years, who tend to be very well paid with kids in international schools. But these are not the expats generally spoken about wrt EU migration and as others have said, it is a way of saying white Brits who have emigrated are different to everyone else.

Why isn't the word emigrant used more? Those old folk on the costas are British emigrants, not expats.

borntobequiet · 13/12/2016 15:16

Like Peregrina, I travelled in the 70s and realized that the British were not universally liked or admired (also realized that food and drink were far nicer abroad). As I am an Irish citizen by virtue of my mother's birth, I simply said I was Irish and found people much more friendly. Now my application has gone off for an Irish passport. BTW I got my (British) passport nicked once on the Spanish border (long story) and travelled (hitchhiking) through France to Paris using only my NHS card as ID - the gendarmerie would routinely quiz hitchikers in those days, but were perfectly satisfied with the NHS card.

Cupofteaandtoilet · 13/12/2016 17:41

Thoughts?

indyref2.scot/uk-not-likely-to-survive-brexit-article-50-decision

RedToothBrush · 13/12/2016 17:51

I am struggling with the news today.
It's just. Bad.

I may take a couple of days out.

OP posts:
birdybirdywoofwoof · 13/12/2016 18:02

Flowers red

Unicornsarelovely · 13/12/2016 18:02

I'm sorry RTB - Syria is just so appalling.

I know it's a guardian link but I found this strangely heartening despite the US perspective https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/13/survive-2017-barricade-your-uterus-tax-yourself?CMP=ShareiOSAppOther

I like the idea of taxing myself the changes to the personal allowance as a starting point.

Castelnaumansions · 13/12/2016 18:24

Red You have to know what a lifeline your thread has been, you've already changed the news in my life. I bet you've read about times like these, the only way out is through. Van Morrison sang about happy ones.
Here's a song and take care. Flowers And to all the the lovely posters on this thread.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2016 18:31

Foreign students:

Mostly return to their home countries.

They are some of the best & brightest, the future leaders in government & industry.
Within even 10 years, some of them will influence where major contracts go.

Most other Western countries are eager to attract foreign students, to while they are young & impressionable, to make friends & influence them.

Some European countries like Germany even have degree courses where all lectures & exams are in English, the most international language, to deliberately attract those who may become their future important customers and trading partners.

May and a significant section of the (English) public just see all foreigners as an amorphous mass - Not British, Not Wanted Here.
They see a problem, not an opportunity.

AnnieKenney · 13/12/2016 18:41

Flowers Red you are doing a brilliant job and seriously keeping me sane. Thank you for all the amazing effort you out into these threads - you certainly deserve a break (although I will miss you)

Castelnaumansions · 13/12/2016 19:00

On another few threads and in the news: the rail strike and the PO strike next week.
They're being reported internationally too. I think this is a growing story. This country didn't just do brexit, it started the mass trades union movement

TuckersBadLuck · 13/12/2016 19:21

This country didn't just do brexit, it started the mass trades union movement

It's not really a 'mass' anything. It's one train company and a small proportion of Post Offices, hardly a general strike. And nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.

Castelnaumansions · 13/12/2016 19:39

And Argos is out too next week.
I'd agree Tuckers it's not directly brexit related, and it's not a general strike. Mass trades unions did start, however, in this country.
But trades unions now stand for anti racist, pro human rights narrative which overlaps with EU membership. For sure, unionised European workers are not on the zero hour exploitation of this country.
With an absolutely impotent labour party, unions will step into the breach. It's not ideal and will perhaps give succour to the extremists on the left. But this might be the way opposition is going.

TuckersBadLuck · 13/12/2016 19:49

It's not actually Argos drivers, it's Wincanton Logistics drivers working on an Argos contract. And IMO it's not Brexit, the impotent Labour Party or anything else rational that's bringing all 3 disputes to a head at the same time - it's Christmas, that's all. They're just picking their time to cause the most disturbance and get the most publicity.

Castelnaumansions · 13/12/2016 20:02

And Basildon potentially! But agreed it's not a general strike, yet Grin
Pesky liberal elitist train drivers, postal workers and delivery drivers wanting elitist privileges like safe trains, pensions and to be paid for holidays. fortunately the Daily Heil is reporting it like it's armageddon.

Melassa · 13/12/2016 20:17

I'm also struggling with it all. Have retreated into Candy Crush with Calvados.

Thanks RTB for these sane threads. I ventured into the crowd funding one and was overwhelmed at the angry exclamation marks. And the non facts, and the refusal to accept anything that doesn't fit into their narrative, however much actual evidence you give them. Some people are really bitter and there is a lot of if I can't have then I don't want you to either.

Coming back to the lazy Brit stereotype, there is nothing to stop unemployed British youth from looking for work elsewhere and thus take advantage of FOM. It's a bit Tebbit's on yer bike but if youth from other countries can come to the UK and find work (and I'm not talking Eastern Europeans picking fruit, but for example Spanish people working all hours in hospitality etc.) then it can be done the other way. But no, there are foreign languages, foreign food and foreign people. They won't even entertain it unless it's doing PR for bars in Greece and Magaluf where they can get free drinks