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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:03

Its twelve days to go until the end of the HoC 2016 calendar and we can already tell that everyone is wishing it was Christmas already. Poor Theresa though, she doesn’t get to play with toys on the last day of term. Instead she has a grilling on the lack of spending on health and social care spending by a commons select committee.

Hopefully the next couple of weeks will calm down a little though as thoughts turn elsewhere.

The A50 case has come to an end. There is no way of telling which way the judges will go but the decision to appeal may yet haunt the government as it will bring the issue of devolution to a head, whether they win or lose. The ruling is due in mid January.

Win and they are going to have to amend the Devolution Acts and potentially impose Brexit on people with certain national identities who voted against it. This is profoundly undemocratic and a betrayal of the principles of Devolution and the expectations of the will of the people.
Lose and they could face a full blown constitutional crisis, with NI or Scotland or both having a veto over Brexit, and the government effectively unable to trigger a50 in line with our constitutional requirement. Which is again, potentially profoundly undemocratic and against the referendum and the expectations of the will of the people.

It was a scenario that predictable and avoidable at several junctions yet the government under Cameron and May ploughed on regardless. It a scenario that we are now locked into, due to deciding to use the courts rather than just go through parliament.

It could also massively restrict the power of the executive under the Royal Prerogative. Ironically this is something that David Davis has campaigned for, for years so I guess he gets a victory however the decision goes.
So the chances of some kind of crisis with regard to our constitutional makeup and the union seem inevitable in the new year.

The government despite a defeat in Richmond Park continues to lean right and characterise anyone with concerns as unpatriotic or not honourable. This is the last resort of the desperate.

They have however, conceded to Labour that they will publish a report on their Brexit plans before a50 is triggered. In return Labour have promised that they will let a50 be triggered by the end of March. Is this a good thing? It remains to be seen. In some ways this is a blinder for Labour.

They are pro-Brexit but anti-lack of plan in theory. This only works if the plan actually has substance. If there is no substance in the plan and its nothing more than empty words then they face having to go back on a commons vote committing them to a deal with the Conservatives. It could therefore be a trap for them. It marginalises the none English Nationalist voices too. Voices that are important and deserve to be heard. Voices that if they are not listened to, will have consequences.

What will the Sleaford and North Hykenham (yep again) by election bring?

A vote of confidence in the government, a new ever growing and rising fear of UKIP or something else. How will this colour the start to the New Year?

I don’t know. 2016 has apparently been the year of gin as people turn to the drink to cope. Everything is now Brexitty and Red, White and Blue.
But whose’s? Britain’s? The USA’s? Russia’s? Or France’s?

We look forward to, or more to the point we fear what 2017 could bring. A feeling we have not felt to this degree in many years. A General Election with a UKIP breakthrough. The end of peace in NI. A repeat of the age old betrayal of Scotland’s by the English. The Welsh damned to irrelevance and marginalisation. Brexit vettoed and the subsequent political fallout. The end of the NHS. A bonfire of rights. A new Italian PM and possibly new Eurozone economic crisis. Fillon or Le Pen and at last a real victory for the far right in Europe. The chance of Merkel’s Last Stand. Putin’s partnership with Assad and a new genocide we are powerless to stop. Erdogan pulling the plug on the EU door and unleashing a new wave of refugees onto European shores. The horror of ISIS both within the West and within the Middle East. Trump’s neo-fascism and rise of a New World Order. There is something in there for everyone to dread.

Which will it be? Probably something we have not yet foreseen such are these times.

Act 2 of Brexit in Westminstenders land is bound to be just as dramatic and of course, we leave 2016 in true soap fashion on a real cliff hanger.

All the more reason to enjoy the holiday period and break whatever your politics.

OP posts:
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Castelnaumansions · 12/12/2016 17:34

Britain First have been posting for years on FB, and have targeted young people, I think. The EDL have been quietly building up membership and not so quietly marching round places like Aylesbury and Luton. But it's the 'fellow travellers' that are now a concern. Hello Arron. Hello Michael. And the ukips candidate in Seaford had Victoria Ayling (National Front member in the past) This week it was revealed that Jayda Fransen, deputy leader of Britain First, would be among the D-list stars on Celebrity Big Brother 2017.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 12/12/2016 17:38

Hope not hate is an anti racist group if you're interested marjorie.

SwedishEdith · 12/12/2016 17:41

An awful lot of social media falls into the category "but what is it for ?"

Agree. The people I know who don't use FB/Twitter are all working, otherwise up-to-date people - they just pull a bit of an "ew, no" face if you mention FB. And lots who are on FB don't use it that much. I suspect a significant percentage of people's social media contacts are people they met online.

SwedishEdith · 12/12/2016 17:46

This week it was revealed that Jayda Fransen, deputy leader of Britain First, would be among the D-list stars on Celebrity Big Brother 2017.

Is that true? Shock

Castelnaumansions · 12/12/2016 17:49

thanks birdy www.hopenothate.org.uk and www.splcenter.org; long established anti racist monitoring in Harper Lee's home town.

MarjorieSimpson · 12/12/2016 18:01

red my PIL have voted leave.
They are farmers.
I am foreign form another EU country.
Their grand children have been raised bilingual and bicultural and they have always said this was really great and a great advantage to them.
They see their grand children as being 'international' (we were talking about class and I was asking my MIL where she thought the dcs would fit in the English system).
They still voted leave.

This is a subject we never ever talk about even though we talk about almost everything.....

TheNorthRemembers · 12/12/2016 18:14

Is this the Enoch Powell who could speak 14 languages?

lurkinghusband No. It is the version who prophesised that little old white ladies will be barred from their childhood parks by nasty non-white men. If ever you are not allowed into a park, the right attitude is not ask for the reason (park maintenance, emergency, event?), but shout: "You [insert the most negative slang for the nationality you think the council employee is]! Who do you think you are?! You can't keep me out! This [repeat slang word] is harassing me! Police!!!!

I also have to teach DS about the opium wars and Britain's role in it, because ILs obviously have no idea about it or think it is too negative [as opposed to saying other nationalities brought drugs here].

Castelnaumansions · 12/12/2016 18:16

Ten members of the electoral college have requested more information from intelligence officials on the relationship between President-elect Donald Trump and Russia.www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/electoral-college-members-russia-intelligence-briefing-vote-donald-trump-russia-a7470311.html

merrymouse · 12/12/2016 18:20

Emilyalice I am not arguing that everyone over 65 is a Luddite.

However, it is just plain fact that younger and older people, when analysed as groups, consume media in different ways, as much out of habit as anything else. That doesn't mean that each group is homogenous.

Yes many polls didn't predict Brexit or Trump, but I don't think any poll said these outcomes were impossible. These 'failures' don't mean that all data is wrong. I haven't seen any evidence that older people weren't more likely to vote leave, and this is backed up by analysis of the demographics of the areas that voted leave.

My point is that many Brexiters were far more likely to be influenced by traditional forms of media like television news and newspapers than the 'bubble' of social media.

SwedishEdith · 12/12/2016 18:22

I'm totally speechless at that, castel.

EmilyAlice · 12/12/2016 18:34

Do you think that young Brexiters were not influenced by social media merrymouse? Were Trump supporters not influenced by social media? I have seen plenty of Brexiters of all ages on forums, Twitter and Facebook. I think generalisations based on age are dangerous.

merrymouse · 12/12/2016 18:52

I think that analysis of voting and consumer patterns is necessary to understand why people vote and what they want. Also, apart from anything else, people who are now 20 are going to be around longer.

I don't understand why you would be resistant to the idea that somebody of 70 and somebody of 20 have a different experience of the world and different priorities.

Trump and Brexit are similar in some ways, but in others completely different. The referendum had a high turn out and the election low. I don't think voter suppression was an issue in the referendum, I don't think there were many people making money out of fake news and I don't recall any MI6/MI5 controversies or anything similar to pizzagate.

I suspect young Brexiters were influenced by social media and are as unlikely to watch the six o clock news or buy a newspaper as their Remainer peers, but proportionately they were fewer in number.

Melassa · 12/12/2016 18:53

Cautiously encouraging news re the Trump circus possibly being deflated. Why isn't it in all the papers though? I can understand the right wing tabloids, but the Guardian for eg are still going with the pro Russian guy being appointed and what a nice guy he is from the Russian viewpoint. I'd have thought they'd have been on it.

On another note I see the Pennsylvania recount has been refused. Can they do that? In a supposed democracy? This seriously undermines the classic US role as leader of the free and democratic world.

merrymouse · 12/12/2016 18:55

And again, I am not arguing that nobody over the age of 65 uses social media.

MangoMoon · 12/12/2016 18:56

Wrt social media etc - due to my former job my friendship & acquaintance group stretches in age from late teens to late 50s; my non job based friends (from school, uni etc are my age, early 40s).
We are all avid users of social media - right up to those in their late 50s, older than that are my family/extended family and my exes extended family, who are also all over FB.
Geographically, my friends & acquaintances are based across the UK & Ireland & all over the world. Most outwith the uk are non EU based.

One thing my social media wasn't, was an echo chamber - a very, very wide range from not caring one bit about politics to practically rabid in interest; Remain & Leave, left & right.
And then reaching out from that is the friends of friends where you see even more diversity of opinion.

EmilyAlice · 12/12/2016 19:02

All the analysis I have seen says around 60:40 for Brexit for over 65s. It also says that lack of tertiary education is a more significant factor overall than age. I think some people of 70 will indeed have different priorities to some people of 30. People of 20 in a far-right group are likely to have different priorities to people of 70 who were at Greenham Common. The danger is when people try to generalise about the attitudes and values of groups people based on age, gender or race.

merrymouse · 12/12/2016 19:09

I live in an area where most people voted Leave, a large number of people support UKIP, and about 50 % of people are retired.

That does not mean that I am retired, a leave voter or a member of UKIP.

However, local politicians, doctors, council workers, business owners etc. etc. would be nuts if they ignored the local demographics.

Most of the people I see everyday are like me - parents of school age children and/or working. However that doesn't mean we are representative of the demographics of the area.

Peregrina · 12/12/2016 19:10

I don't think voter suppression was an issue in the referendum,

Not outright suppression but incompetence in proxy and postal voting paperwork being received too late. Whether this was enough to change the result is debatable.

SilentBatperson · 12/12/2016 19:11

Didn't pretty much all polls say Brexit was going to be too close to call? Ie result within a couple of percent of 50/50. Which was right.

And sure, the analysis about age, education etc has been pretty conclusive. Of course one can never make assumptions, and even in the most overwhelmingly one way demographics there were still significant minorities voting the opposite way, but generally if someone dismisses all the research done on voting demographics, one has to wonder if it's simply because they found the conclusion inconvenient.

Yes, it's superficial. And trite. But incredibly .... right.

Except Amazon spends some of that money it doesn't pay in tax on lobbying for things. Probably not all of which Romesh would agree with either.

merrymouse · 12/12/2016 19:13

It also says that lack of tertiary education is a more significant factor overall than age.

That is a bit chicken and egg.

The younger you are, the more access you have to tertiary education (even taking student loans into account).

Castelnaumansions · 12/12/2016 19:17

Do I dare start a thread on AIBU swedish?! It was the group that the killer of Jo Cox was associated with. The IRA weren't even allowed to be filmed for British TV in the 1980s, never mind appear on Blankety Blank or whatever the equivalent of CBB was then!

Castelnaumansions · 12/12/2016 19:19

Peregrina, Misti mentioned that she couldn't access her postal vote. Wonder how many EU resident British couldn't.

merrymouse · 12/12/2016 19:21

Re Trump, it's one thing proving Russian involvement, another showing that it changed the outcome of the election and another linking Russian involvement directly to Trump.

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