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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:03

Its twelve days to go until the end of the HoC 2016 calendar and we can already tell that everyone is wishing it was Christmas already. Poor Theresa though, she doesn’t get to play with toys on the last day of term. Instead she has a grilling on the lack of spending on health and social care spending by a commons select committee.

Hopefully the next couple of weeks will calm down a little though as thoughts turn elsewhere.

The A50 case has come to an end. There is no way of telling which way the judges will go but the decision to appeal may yet haunt the government as it will bring the issue of devolution to a head, whether they win or lose. The ruling is due in mid January.

Win and they are going to have to amend the Devolution Acts and potentially impose Brexit on people with certain national identities who voted against it. This is profoundly undemocratic and a betrayal of the principles of Devolution and the expectations of the will of the people.
Lose and they could face a full blown constitutional crisis, with NI or Scotland or both having a veto over Brexit, and the government effectively unable to trigger a50 in line with our constitutional requirement. Which is again, potentially profoundly undemocratic and against the referendum and the expectations of the will of the people.

It was a scenario that predictable and avoidable at several junctions yet the government under Cameron and May ploughed on regardless. It a scenario that we are now locked into, due to deciding to use the courts rather than just go through parliament.

It could also massively restrict the power of the executive under the Royal Prerogative. Ironically this is something that David Davis has campaigned for, for years so I guess he gets a victory however the decision goes.
So the chances of some kind of crisis with regard to our constitutional makeup and the union seem inevitable in the new year.

The government despite a defeat in Richmond Park continues to lean right and characterise anyone with concerns as unpatriotic or not honourable. This is the last resort of the desperate.

They have however, conceded to Labour that they will publish a report on their Brexit plans before a50 is triggered. In return Labour have promised that they will let a50 be triggered by the end of March. Is this a good thing? It remains to be seen. In some ways this is a blinder for Labour.

They are pro-Brexit but anti-lack of plan in theory. This only works if the plan actually has substance. If there is no substance in the plan and its nothing more than empty words then they face having to go back on a commons vote committing them to a deal with the Conservatives. It could therefore be a trap for them. It marginalises the none English Nationalist voices too. Voices that are important and deserve to be heard. Voices that if they are not listened to, will have consequences.

What will the Sleaford and North Hykenham (yep again) by election bring?

A vote of confidence in the government, a new ever growing and rising fear of UKIP or something else. How will this colour the start to the New Year?

I don’t know. 2016 has apparently been the year of gin as people turn to the drink to cope. Everything is now Brexitty and Red, White and Blue.
But whose’s? Britain’s? The USA’s? Russia’s? Or France’s?

We look forward to, or more to the point we fear what 2017 could bring. A feeling we have not felt to this degree in many years. A General Election with a UKIP breakthrough. The end of peace in NI. A repeat of the age old betrayal of Scotland’s by the English. The Welsh damned to irrelevance and marginalisation. Brexit vettoed and the subsequent political fallout. The end of the NHS. A bonfire of rights. A new Italian PM and possibly new Eurozone economic crisis. Fillon or Le Pen and at last a real victory for the far right in Europe. The chance of Merkel’s Last Stand. Putin’s partnership with Assad and a new genocide we are powerless to stop. Erdogan pulling the plug on the EU door and unleashing a new wave of refugees onto European shores. The horror of ISIS both within the West and within the Middle East. Trump’s neo-fascism and rise of a New World Order. There is something in there for everyone to dread.

Which will it be? Probably something we have not yet foreseen such are these times.

Act 2 of Brexit in Westminstenders land is bound to be just as dramatic and of course, we leave 2016 in true soap fashion on a real cliff hanger.

All the more reason to enjoy the holiday period and break whatever your politics.

OP posts:
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18
Peregrina · 11/12/2016 15:50

My reading is that Gibraltar most definitely wants a bespoke deal. Of all the places which voted in the Referendum, I think this is one where a fudge is most likely - where they will still be in the EU in all but name.

howabout · 11/12/2016 15:51

No-one else proud of TM for putting on a show of ostentation with her lux leather style just as she was about to visit one of the most misogynistic regions of the World?

MarjorieSimpson · 11/12/2016 15:52

So they are only now starting to think that these neo Nazi groups are terrorists but they are happy to label the anti fracking campaigners in Yorkshire terrorists ....

Is it me or something isnt quite right there?

MangoMoon · 11/12/2016 15:54

Jonathan Pie's latest offering:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LWgXffXwJwc

lalalonglegs · 11/12/2016 15:54

I think I'd be prouder if she stood up for liberal values when dealing with said misogynist regions...

Unicornsarelovely · 11/12/2016 15:57

Thanks Figment. That's a very interesting and scary article - a lot of it rings true.

MarjorieSimpson · 11/12/2016 16:11

Very interesting read figment and actually one that makes sense of both the vote in the US and the one of Brexit.

As for the failing of the democracy in the US. I think if you want to see what a failing democracy looks like, you can read again 1984.
But you need to be honest about the life we are (or will be) all actually living...

merrymouse · 11/12/2016 16:42

Really interesting article Figment, particularly the conclusion:

It takes an extraordinarily fine-tuned political intelligence to target popular anger at the parts of the state that need reform while leaving intact the parts that make that reform possible. Trump – and indeed Brexit – are not that. They are the bluntest of instruments, indiscriminately shaking the foundations with nothing to offer by way of support. Under these conditions, the likeliest response is for the grown-ups in the room to hunker down, waiting for the storm to pass. While they do, politics atrophies and necessary change is put off by the overriding imperative of avoiding systemic collapse. The understandable desire to keep the tanks off the streets and the cashpoints open gets in the way of tackling the long-term threats we face. Fake disruption followed by institutional paralysis, and all the while the real dangers continue to mount. Ultimately, that is how democracy ends.

Castelnaumansions · 11/12/2016 17:17

Good article figment thanks. The figures on incarceration and suicide were a shocking inditement of current US and makes a radical election result understandable, sort of.
How about democracy is a journey, not a destination? Universal suffrage is such a recent concept. Didn't Swiss women only get the vote in 1971? Could this all be an important staging post?

BigChocFrenzy · 11/12/2016 18:52

Trump has selected Rex Tillerson, CCEO of Exxon Mobil, to be his Secretary of State.

Trump said during the campaign that the USA was now entitled to take the Iraq oilfields, as reward for US military "saving" Iraq.

The Washington Post reported Tillerson has $218 million in Exxon stock (plus a pension plan worth about $69 million) *

So US foreign policy won't be wars for oil any more ?* ConfusedHmm

NBC News says Tillerson's overall net worth is over $150 million.
So US voters have stuck it to the elite ? Confused

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 11/12/2016 19:48

I've decided to resurrect my long dormant MN account to thank all of the contributors to these threads for what is possibly the only measured Brexit debate on the Internet.

As someone who is instinctively remain (and, quite likely, part of that metropolitan liberal elite that people keep going on about) I would like to hear more from the leave side (or indeed anyone else) what a post-Brexit Britain could look like and what the smoothest path to getting there is. I'm not very optimistic and could use some cheering up. My suspicion is that changes to the law that would previously been impossible will tend to disadvantage and disenfranchise all but the richest and most powerful in our society, rather than empower them. I also worry that we will end up with less democratic accountability than we had before, ironically enough. Perhaps I'm being too pessimistic... I'd be pleased to be proved wrong.

For my part if there is an opportunity then it would be to do devolution properly, with a bit of voting reform thrown in for good measure, so that people feel better represented. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of appetite for that (and, of course, we didn't need to leave the EU to do it).

MarjorieSimpson · 11/12/2016 19:57

So it seems that a lot of Leavers aren't that keen on the consequences of their vote after all
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-live-updates-finances-money-worse-off-article-50-a7468411.html

TuckersBadLuck · 11/12/2016 19:58

I've decided to resurrect my long dormant MN account to thank all of the contributors to these threads for what is possibly the only measured Brexit debate on the Internet.

I absolutely concur with that. It has been most informative and educating.

Kaija · 11/12/2016 20:20

Bigchoc, yes it's pretty bad. And then there's that medal from Putin.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/11/rex-tillerson-secretary-of-state-trump-russia-putin?client=safari

Kaija · 11/12/2016 20:21

Eeeow, yes to all of that.

mathanxiety · 11/12/2016 20:23

BigChoc, I completely disagree with your contention that the Democrats are sometimes worried about aggression abroad. Much as I admire Obama, and much as voting for Trump was unthinkable for me, the Obama administration has carried out a most aggressive interventionist policy abroad. It is absolutely not a party of doves. This is a common European misapprehension of party stances in the US.

I also think the word 'fascist' kinda loses its meaning when it is overused.

london333 · 11/12/2016 20:24

Another one who wants to sincerely thank RTB and all of you insightful, intelligent and thoughtful contributers to these threads. I lurk on here every day, just to read some intelligent and balanced comments amidst the cesspit that is Brexit.
This may have been discussed before and I missed it but how realistic do people think that the possibility of individual EU citizenship will be?
www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/the_fight_for_opt_in_eu_citizenship_is_on_1_4808309

NotDavidTennant · 11/12/2016 20:33

Tillerson hasn't been officially announced yet, has he?

If he does get chosen then this surely must be the wealthiest cabinet in US history by a long chalk.

mathanxiety · 11/12/2016 20:34

We talk about 'Russian intentions' (to quote that Guardian article) in Europe as if this was a clearcut matter about which there is no question and no doubt.

Yet we actually are referring to suspicions based on perhaps nothing more than personal prejudices.

Decisions with far-reaching consequences have been made in a context where:

'...the Foreign Office has lost expertise and analytical capacity on Russia and the region [eastern Europe and Ukraine], and ... the UK and other Member States were unable to read events on the ground and offer an authoritative response. The Government needs to reconsider how it can regain these skills.'

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/lords-select/eu---foreign-affairs-defence-and-development-policy-sub-committee-c/news/eu-russia-report-publication/

The prospect of the return of realism in US-Russian Federation relations is something - most likely the only thing - to welcome in the Trump administration (I assume the Electoral College doesn't have a surprise up its sleeve).

mathanxiety · 11/12/2016 20:35

Correct, NotDavidTennant, he has not yet been officially nominated afaik.

TheRollingCrone · 11/12/2016 20:40

Brilliant thread

whatwouldrondo · 11/12/2016 20:46

Trump on US -China relations on the other hand is not sounding at all realistic, Beijing sending a gentle reminder about how much of the US debt they hold in response to his twittering on trade, currency, the South China Sea, one China and climate change. As it isn't on Twitter will Trump and his advisers even Notice? m.scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/2053732/us-debt-threat-world-says-chinese-state-run-paper

Castelnaumansions · 11/12/2016 20:48

Eeeeeowwwfftz I agree! Smile

birdybirdywoofwoof · 11/12/2016 20:55

www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14959179.Why_audience_manipulation_on_BBC_Question_Time_is_an_assault_on_truth_and_journalism/

A Deputy leader of Britain First - Jayda Fransen? to go on Celebrity Big Brother? Wow.

Mistigri · 11/12/2016 21:06

london333 i think associate citizenship is a bit of a longshot tbh, but it is very clever politics. The brexiters hate it, mainly because they know how bad it will look if a large number of people voluntarily take it up. It's also very hard for them to argue against.

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