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Brexit

The Brexit Arms. Please drink ( & post ) responsibly.

999 replies

surferjet · 08/12/2016 14:11

Wine
The Brexit Arms. Please drink ( & post ) responsibly.
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19
howabout · 14/01/2017 14:00

The proposal on individual opt in to EU citizenship is a bit concerning. There seems to be an implication that only UK citizens who opt-in, which may or may not be attached to additional costs and obligations, will have their rights protected in EU states post Brexit? At the moment the UK is seeking to protect all UK citizens who wish to remain in other parts of the EU and all non-UK EU citizens currently in the UK, which is a much wider commitment.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 14/01/2017 14:01

The poor are poor because of government policy that attacks the most vulnerable in society

In particular Labours Tony Blair's disastrous decision to lift workers movement rights, leading to the largest wave of immigration this country has ever seen and yet, not a single provision made for it.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 14/01/2017 14:03

Perfectly 'at home' with people just like them throughout Europe, yet completely unaware of the people who are not just like them 30 mins down the road in Britain

Indeed.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 14/01/2017 14:11

who flounce around screeching about how they are not British, but citizens of everywhere because they are so terribly enlightened compared to a bricky from stoke-on-Trent who is quite happy being a bricky from stoke-on-Trent

Applauds Semi Permanent.

BrexshitMeansBrexshit · 14/01/2017 14:21

At the moment the UK is seeking to protect all UK citizens who wish to remain in other parts of the EU and all non-UK EU citizens currently in the UK, which is a much wider commitment.

The article says: "The right would provide each British citizen individually with an opportunity to obtain "associate citizenship", allowing them to keep free movement to live and work across the EU, as well as a vote in European Parliament elections."
It is FOM that a lot of remain voters would like to continue having the advantage of. Brexit voters and our own government have been vociferous in saying they want to end this. Presumably Brexit voters won't be interested in opting in to such a scheme, so this proposition shouldn't be any skin off their noses. No-one will be forcing them to have the freedom to move to/work in other parts of Europse, so they can all stay here and not have their 'British identity' diluted by those of us who value the right to live and work elsewhere if we choose.

In what way is 'the UK ... seeking to protect all UK citizens who wish to remain in other parts of the EU and all non-UK EU citizens currently in the UK'? The UK government refuses to make a clear statement about this and certainly is NOT giving the impression of wanting to protect EU citizens in the UK.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 14/01/2017 14:28

But how does it make it better for the poor people of the UK to have millions of extremely poor people coming to live with them? As Frank Field said - find compassion vote Leave for the Poor, he didnt just pull this out of a hat, this is his views after seeing this in action in Birkenhead.

The Tories are currently presiding over the destruction of the NHS so why would you think they could help places like Birkenhead?

In particular Labours Tony Blair's disastrous decision to lift workers movement rights, leading to the largest wave of immigration this country has ever seen and yet, not a single provision made for it.

Poverty and social inequality didn't begin with New Labour. Indeed, what were Thatcher's Tories doing for the poor and marginalized in the 80's - places like Birkenhead? Migrants follow jobs not poverty.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 14/01/2017 14:34

I would say Blairs Labour ran a juggernaut through poor areas of this country and people wonder why we have food banks now, They don't appear overnight and yes we all know governments fail the poor but my goodness what Blair did was crime of the century.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 14/01/2017 14:36

Migrants living on shoe string budgets and on shoe string wages - live in very poor areas. They will also be able to access the same support - as the poor already here which is great as long as it doesn't impact on the over stretched services and resources for the poor here already and make their situation worse.

SemiPermanent · 14/01/2017 14:36

I do find it ironic that a European MEP is more open to fulfilling the expressed wishes of many UK remain voters than our own government.

Ironic?
Why?
It's not up to the UK to tell the EU what they should/shouldn't allow - regardless if it is 'the expressed wishes of many Remain voters' or not.

Presumably Brexit voters won't be interested in opting in to such a scheme, so this proposition shouldn't be any skin off their noses. No-one will be forcing them to have the freedom to move to/work in other parts of Europse, so they can all stay here and not have their 'British identity' diluted by those of us who value the right to live and work elsewhere if we choose.

Desperately trying to find a Brexit voter on this thread who has said they would be upset by UK Remain voters opting to live/work where they choose...

In what way is 'the UK ... seeking to protect all UK citizens who wish to remain in other parts of the EU and all non-UK EU citizens currently in the UK'? The UK government refuses to make a clear statement about this and certainly is NOT giving the impression of wanting to protect EU citizens in the UK.

You appear to be slightly behind the drag curve.
The UK proposed reciprocal rights last year - EU categorically stated nothing could be discussed/decided before negotiations begin.
The UK tried, the EU blocked.

SemiPermanent · 14/01/2017 14:39

Other EU countries opted for brakes & stages of immigration from former Eastern Bloc members - Tony Blair arrogantly dismissed the option to do so.

Blame lies squarely with Blair as Elf said.

SemiPermanent · 14/01/2017 14:41

Migrants follow jobs not poverty.

Indeed they do.
And the minimum wage in UK being more than double the national average wage in your home country means that you will always be better off than you were.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 14/01/2017 14:43

I would say Blairs Labour ran a juggernaut through poor areas of this country and people wonder why we have food banks now, They don't appear overnight and yes we all know governments fail the poor but my goodness what Blair did was crime of the century.

Under the Tories use of food banks are at record levels.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32406120

Tories closing Sure Start centres

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/08/sure-start-closures-almost-doubled-last-year-figures-show

They will also be able to access the same support - as the poor already here which is great as long as it doesn't impact on the over stretched services and resources for the poor here already and make their situation worse.

Services are over streched due to budget cuts, closures, privatisation and right wing ideology. Cutting immigration will not change that.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 14/01/2017 14:49

so they can all stay here and not have their 'British identity' diluted by those of us who value the right to live and work elsewhere if we choose

I dont understand this - we have always had flow between Europe and UK since time immemorial. As I said earlier - people do realise we are not geographically moving? We just don't want such a marriage with Europe, we want to be friends thats all. We can still go and live and work there as we have always done. And the rest of the world of course.

Even then - without the working brakes Blair chose not to use we can see its been a very much - act now - pay later strategy - in fact I am sure I read this was his actual MO somewhere.
As with all the EU I feel the game plan is very much - act now/ pay later....throw this generation and the next under the bus and in time - the great EU project will work, they just need to break some eggs first.

Ie the generations lost to mass unemployment across the EU, and so on.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 14/01/2017 14:51

Indeed they do.
And the minimum wage in UK being more than double the national average wage in your home country means that you will always be better off than you were.

and yet British people in low paid jobs will struggle to pay rent/afford mortgage (due to government housing policy). Make work pay and give people a stake in society instead of blaming migrants.

Would British people be queuing up to do farm work? It seems Andrea Leadsom does not think so;

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/04/british-farmers-will-have-access-migrant-workers-brexit-andrea/

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 14/01/2017 14:51

Ghost yes - under the Tories and where did it start, how and where did the snow ball start?

As I said it doesnt just happen one day - its a slow build up which firmly started under Blair. Peoples situation has got worse and worse and worse until thats where they end up.

lucyannab · 14/01/2017 14:51

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SemiPermanent · 14/01/2017 14:54

Make work pay and give people a stake in society instead of blaming migrants.

Nobody here is blaming immigrants for anything.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 14/01/2017 14:56

People were managing though Ghost until various factors including stiff competition from people who live on shoe string budgets in budget lodgings, and get paid less for the same job. Sending meager wages back to say Poland where they are worth a fortune. Where the worker can send say £20 back home and the family back home can live far better on those wages than a family here trying to survive on them.

For countries like Poland - its been a god send hasn't it? I think Blair has been awarded a very special award/honour there. Its not surprising. Donald Tusk must be thrilled for all the benefits his country has gained from being in the EU.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 14/01/2017 14:57

As I said it doesnt just happen one day - its a slow build up which firmly started under Blair. Peoples situation has got worse and worse and worse until thats where they end up.

Poverty and inequality did not begin in 1997. You might want to check the World in Action documentary on 1980's Birkenhead I linked. Labour introduced Sure Start, the Tories cut them.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 14/01/2017 14:58

How on earth do we make work pay in the grey /black ecconomy

GhostofFrankGrimes · 14/01/2017 15:04

Nobody here is blaming immigrants for anything.

Right so we agree that low pay, run down services, poverty and job shortages are the result of government policy not overpopulation?

GhostofFrankGrimes · 14/01/2017 15:06

How on earth do we make work pay in the grey /black ecconomy

That is for our own democratically elected government to combat is it not?

surferjet · 14/01/2017 15:08

Started new thread.

OP posts:
ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 14/01/2017 15:12

How did Blair's policies help though, they are the party of the working /poor man? Poverty grew under Blairs Labour they admitted they failed on not only bridging the gap but making it worse

www.theguardian.com/society/2009/may/08/poverty-equality-britain-incomes-poor

"Britain under Gordon Brown is a more unequal country than at any time since modern records began in the early 1960s, after the incomes of the poor fell and those of the rich rose in the three years after the 2005 general election"

"Deprivation and inequality in the UK rose for a third successive year in 2007-08, according to data from the Department for Work and Pensions that prompted strong criticism from campaign groups for the government's backsliding on its anti-poverty goals"

"In a further blow, the government failed to make a dent in the number of children or pensioners living in poverty after big increases the previous year. Almost 17,000 more children in England are on free school meals this year compared with last, according to government data also published yesterday"

"Even before the onset of the UK's deepest recession in a generation, official figures showed that only the better-off families were spared from a squeeze on living standards that saw median income virtually unchanged and fresh cuts in real pay for those on the lowest salaries"

"Since Tony Blair's third election victory, the poorest 10% of households have seen weekly incomes fall by £9 a week to £147 once inflation is accounted for, while those in the richest 10% of homes have enjoyed a £45 a week increase to £1,033"

^ This is your ground work for Food Banks Grimes. Adding in Credit Crunch and then immigrants.

Ministers all but admitted that Labour had abandoned the 2010 goal of halving child deprivation from the 3.4m total at the turn of the millennium but insisted that the party was committed to abolishing it entirely by 2020

"Martin Narey, chief executive of Barnardo's, said: "Today's figures provide confirmation that Labour have abandoned their bravest commitment – to halve child poverty by 2010. For the families left to languish in the misery and debt that poverty inflicts, that is a tragedy"

"Colette Marshall, UK director of Save the Children, said: " It is outrageous that so many children continue to miss out on the basic necessities most take for granted. Today's figures show the government will fall well short of its 2010 target. In 2001 Gordon Brown referred to child poverty as a 'scar on Britain's soul'.
[It] is taking a very long time to heal"

With all this shameful record going on, Blair thought it a good idea to shit on the poor even more - by inviting millions of very poor people here to benefit the rich business owners he supported.

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