The Brexit Arms. Please drink ( & post ) responsibly.

[surferjet]

For crying out loud, it's not about over turning the decision, it's about having a plan that's slightly more robust than 'yeah we're leaving'

Democracy means allowing everyone to express a view (as long as it doesn't involve incitement to commit a crime). The content of that view is irrelevant. That is how democracy works.

And democracy also means holding a vote with the implicit assumption the majority choice will be followed. And Bear don't pretend it's about anything but stopping us leaving the EU. I don't care if remainers want to March, protest or lie on the floor drumming their fists and wailing but own your shit Bear and admit what it's about. All this wailing about what's the plan is getting quite pitiful.

infinite, you might be convinced it's about preventing us from leaving the EU but I disagree so please don't tell me to 'own my shit'. Disagree all you like but do not tell me what I think.

I want to see a credible plan for leaving and a robust assessment of how the 4 freedoms will operate if we are no longer part of the EU.

Far from preveninting us leaving- If we were at a stage where those questions were answered more people might be convinced leaving the EU is the right decision.

But you are determined not to be convinced and its very clear from both the tone and content of your posts over the last few months this that you have no intention of being open minded and you repeatedly entirely fail to own your shit so I will continue to call you on it.

Or not as the case may be

infinite, You 'talk' to me like a piece of shit so I'm not going to engage with you.

Bear - maybe TM has not been able to establish a more concrete plan because she has had to focus on ridiculous court cases bought by people who don't like losing (whilst at the same time making the country look a laughing stock). Good work , and to say the court case was anything other than a tantrum and a desperate attempt to get the whole thing overturned is laughable - a chance to buy more time, pull the other one it's got bells on!!

time I genuinely believe that no one in government seriously thought Leave would win hence there were absolutely no plans for that outcome.

Now theyve started looking at what leaving actually entails and the sheer volume of seemingly incompatible option/ issues and a plan looks even further off than ever.

I don't doubt there are some who want the decision overturning- end of. I don't. I can't see how that would ever work.

What needs to happen now is either the Remainers need convincing to leave or vice versa and that can only happen by seeing how it is anticipated it will all pan out.

The jumping off a cliff option doesn't even sit well with all Leavers, let alone Remainers.

Do you know what, sheldon? A lot of remainers would probably be coming around to the idea of Brexit if they'd seen anything resembling a plan, or even an outline of a sketch of a plan, or heard any type of rational debate or discussion that acknowledges the difficulties of leaving, or the problem presented by NI, etc., but we haven't seen anything of the sort. Instead, we get 'the people have spoken,' 'Brexit means Brexit' and a load of other meaningless old tosh. This thread is a typical example of the empty rhetoric trotted out by the clueless idiots who are meant to be leading this process. We are not sheep. We do not have to toe the line because 'the people have spoken' and there's no earthly reason why we should shut up about what a narrow margin there was, or the fact that EU nationals resident in this country for decades were not allowed to vote. In short, we're not going to just roll over and it's naive to assume that 48% of voters are going to passively accept what they see as a disaster.

All this wailing about what's the plan is getting quite pitiful.
Serious question, sheldon. Are you not even slightly curious about where Brexit might be heading, or are you just prepared to dumbly accept it regardless of its shape or form?
Are you really happy to swallow crap like 'Brexit means Brexit'? If so, for how long are you willing to go along with weak/non-existent leadership and trite soundbites?

I want to see a credible plan for leaving and a robust assessment of how the 4 freedoms will operate if we are no longer part of the EU. Far from preventing us leaving- If we were at a stage where those questions were answered more people might be convinced leaving the EU is the right decision.
I completely agree with Bear on this. If a leader with real vision and energy had emerged since the 24th June and demonstrated a serious willingness to listen and engage with the fundamental issues of Brexit, a lot of remainers would have 'come round'.

JC set out his parameters yesterday. DD, BJ and TM are on continuous rotation explaining the various negotiating points - roughly have cake and eat which I am all for. However it is not the UK that has 4 freedoms to negotiate around but the EU and they won't engage at present.

His parameters? What were they? They seemed to flip each time he opened his mouth.

Have cake and eat but in such a way that no-one gets fat and everyone gets a fairer slice.

time I genuinely believe that no one in government seriously thought Leave would win hence there were absolutely no plans for that outcome.

Bear - I agree with you entirely, that possible outcome was brushed under the carpet and that was mistake no.1. Mistake no.2 was underestimating the feeling of a large proportion of the voting public.

With regard to the infamous 4 pillars and how they work going forward, I think that's for negotiation at the table with the EU powers that be and whether they are prepared to negotiate on any/all of those, that we don't know (I suspect they won't especially whilst Juncker is there). The pillars were a good idea when there were only a few countries involved, it is not workable with 27 countries, times have changed and if it is to continue to work then they need to change too, otherwise, and I have said before, I think the 'four pillars' will be its eventual undoing.

roughly have cake and eat which I am all for

See, that's the problem here. Most people would like us to have our cake and to eat it but that isn't on offer-why do people continue to think it is?

If that had ever been on offer the Leave vote would have won by a landslide.

time, the trouble is we want, and realistically need, to keep 3 of the 4 whilst having made it clear we're not willing to comprise on the 4th, FOM, and that it is the overwhelming priority for Leaving.

Doesn't exactly put us in a strong bargaining position does it?

So unicorns from Corbyn then. Just what we needed.

MC making lots of positive noises today

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38582690

roughly have cake and eat which I am all for

You forgot the unicorns and rainbows.

The EU has been really, really, really clear on the 4 freedoms. Who in Europe has even hinted at the ability to change this? You can't split them up. I really don't understand how this message is not getting through. No Freedom of Movement means you can't have the rest.

It. is. not. on. the. table. Ask the Swiss.

Brexit:
Cutting the shackles & leaping into a bright future!

Usually - I agree which is why I think it's a hard Brexit or no brexit (which is not an option).

But how will that work time?

Seriously, how do you see the future if we don't have free trade with the EU? If we lose financial passporting rights?

I not asking for expert opinion here, just your view.