The Brexit Arms. Please drink ( & post ) responsibly.

[surferjet]

The EU is not responsible for neo liberalism consecutive British governments have signed up to it.

Capitalism by its very nature breeds inequalities. After Brexit we'll still have neo liberalism, capitalism and globalisation. Arguments about its "size" are mere semantics. We'll see workers rights stripped back further and those complaining about being left behind now ain't seen nothing yet.

Our resources and manufacturing were sold off years ago (by our own governments). That's why you pay a French company for your gas and electric, the clothes on your back were made in Indonesia and the electronic gadgets in your house made in China.

Grimes - I agree with you to an extent, but:

After Brexit we'll still have neo liberalism, capitalism and globalisation

That's true, because we'll always have capitalism in some form or another, but after Brexit, we'll have it on a smaller scale, which will benefit workers. Neoliberalism is a form of capitalism - we'll still have that but we won't have globalisation. Globalisation and immigration are key to any capitalist/neoliberal system because (classic Marxism), the only bit of power that workers possess in a capitalist system is their labour. Nation state neoliberalism means that workers will be able to get more for it (because their labour becomes a scarce resource because of fewer people).

I've watched that clip, and as usual it does have two sides to the same coin. Way back on this thread I posted a link by Boston Town Council which talks about the impact of immigration, there are issues with drinking and drug use in Boston, but it isn't more proportionally the immigrant population, they talk about Boston having people struggling to get jobs, yet it has massively low uneployment ( 540 people on JSA for more than a year), they talk about Gangmasters, but all of the gangmasters are registered, and none pay less than the minimum wage and there have been prosecutions of those that have attempted this.Its actually very revealing, that people's prejudices are clouding the reality.

Sorry, it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Sorry Fourmummy, I totally disagree, we will have a more rampant form of neo liberalism without the EU.

If I could suggest two rules for the pub they would be

1. banning of the word "debunked"

2. anyone minded to post anything along the lines of "all you leavers....", "I love how you leavers....", "your side.." (and likewise remainers) goes and sits quietly in the corner with a packet of pork scratchings until they are ready to return to polite chat.

There will not be greater workers rights when the Tories curtail the unions and peddle workfare. There is also a danger of skills shortages.

Sorry, it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Well there's the thing - people's reporting of their own perceptions & their own lived experience doesn't have to stand up to scrutiny - it is their version of events as they see/perceive it.
As an observer/listener, you can take it, leave it, believe it, not believe it, look for the quantitative data to back it up/disprove it, whatever.

Sorry, it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny

😂 Who cares?

But that's the thing Mango, people's own perceptions are compromised by their own preconceptions.

There isn't unemployment in Boston caused by immigration, in fact the long term unemployed statistics are almost the same as they were in 2001.

According to the local police there isn't a higher level of public drunkeness caused by the immigrant population.

Perception is a lot of things, but should we be basing critical decisions based on perception or facts?

Which is why it probably best to leave decision making to our elected representatives, whom you would hope make informed decisions once considering various opinions (experts?). Its a lot better than being at the mercy of opinion polls and how Joe Bloggs is feeling on a Monday morning.

"😂 Who cares?"

Me.

I see darth is still strutting over all the threads sucking the fun right out of 'em.

Really good article by Larry Elliott looking at the Cambridge Study of the Treasury forecasting model for Brexit.

www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2017/jan/08/economic-forecasts-hardwired-get-things-wrong

He seems to be saying that all economists get everything wrong, except for his preferred group of economists who know better than all the others. Which just sounds like confirmation bias. What am I missing?

And the pre-ref predictions were based on the immediate triggering of Article 50, which of course hasn't happened.

Its interesting, did you now t the bit in the report about the tranistional agreement followed by a FTO with the EU being the model for their outcomes?

The thing it doesn't address is that this might not happen. The Cambridge report best scenario has a 3% of GDP loss, whilst the BOE and Treasury ones had it at about 4%. The worst scenario figures from both of these institutions were based upon WTO standards.

I agree that many got it wrong, however, no one factored in the interest rate cut and incresed Q.E. We are yet to see any impact of inflation.

DarthPlagueis - this is everyone on this thread after reading your posts.

"The Cambridge report best scenario has a 3% of GDP loss, whilst the BOE and Treasury ones had it at about 4%. The worst scenario figures from both of these institutions were based upon WTO standards."

Absolutely!!

I've just had a MNHQ email knuckle rap for personal attacks (not this thread)
These EU threads will be the death of me

Mango.
Why I don't get too involved anymore. Just not worth it.

Darth spoiled the thread for me. I think she used to be Fox something who was thrown off MN.
Stick with it Surfer. This is the best pub.
Darth, who not go and open up the Remoaners Balls down the road. I hear they have data, graphs and all sorts of experts. You might even meet someone who will listen to your drivel.

Should imagine you won't be the only one, Mango, the way this thread is going.

"Darth spoiled the thread for me"?

Good grief.

Didn't we discuss the Cambridge report a couple of days ago?

Unless I'm having some kind of leftover Christmas advocaat blackout?