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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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HyacinthFuckit · 02/12/2016 08:47

I'd forgotten the LDs had no women until now.

merrymouse · 02/12/2016 08:47

Without more detailed analysis we don't know how many conservative supporters didn't vote.

On the face of it, about 30% of people in RP are Leavers, and about 25% of people voted for Zac.

You would need to compare turnout figures in the referendum and the by election to get a better idea (and assume that everybody who voted in the by election voted in the referendum).

I still think RP conservatives are more accurately represented by locally educated George Osborne than Zac and Theresa May.

Peregrina · 02/12/2016 08:55

You may well be right about Osborne, merrymouse. If his Tatton seat disappears with the next boundary reorganisation, maybe he will try for Richmond Park?

You can't judge by a by-election, but I would imagine that there are a good few Tories with slender majorities, say

woman12345 · 02/12/2016 09:02

Although this is great news, and brilliant to get a woman mp, there are parallels with Shirley Williams' Crosby win in 1981. Doesn't bode well for non tory govt. A version of a party which was last in power in 1906 won't win GE (at this point, I'd love to be wrong)

HyacinthFuckit · 02/12/2016 09:04

You would imagine so peregrina. IIRC they're over represented amongst the slender majority seats right now, as the largest party often is.

iwanttoridemybicycle · 02/12/2016 09:07

Peregrina, my Tory MP won by about 500 seats. He is a hardcore Brexiteer. Constituency was 54% leave. I would happily campaign against him.

iwanttoridemybicycle · 02/12/2016 09:08

500 votes even!

merrymouse · 02/12/2016 09:08

A version of a party which was last in power in 1906 won't win GE

I'd be happy with a pull back to the centre.

merrymouse · 02/12/2016 09:10

As in I don't care if the centre is lib dem, as long as there is one.

Kaija · 02/12/2016 09:14

"I'd be happy with a pull back to the centre."

Yes this. Also I can't help hoping that although tiny, the lib dems will be the grit in the oyster around which a pearl of moderation will coalesce in time.

harvestmoon32 · 02/12/2016 09:15

This article from the Guardian is quite interesting.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/02/richmond-park-lib-dems-celebration-should-be-a-cautious-one

It's one thing for the LDs to push at the open door of remain in an area that voted 72% to remain in the referendum, stuffed full of bankers, but the SW of England where the Tories all but wiped them out in the 2015 election, voted for Brexit in the referendum.

The 3rd runway will now go-ahead !

Kaija · 02/12/2016 09:15

Hopefully not too much time.

merrymouse · 02/12/2016 09:19

I think Zac always over estimated his ability to stop the 3rd runway, particularly after he lost the mayoral election,

Peregrina · 02/12/2016 09:20

Also I can't help hoping that although tiny, the lib dems will be the grit in the oyster around which a pearl of moderation will coalesce in time.

I hope so too. I also hope that moderate people in Leave areas wake up to how they are being betrayed. I saw the brief video from John Harris of the Guardian yesterday interviewing people in Sleaford, and some of the Leave votes were definitely more to do with people feeling neglected. E.g. one person talked about how HS2 would go ahead, which is absolutely nothing to do with the EU, and everything to do with a Westminster vanity project.

Kaija · 02/12/2016 09:26

The lib dems lost an enormous amount of support in the coalition years when they took the flak for pretty much every Tory policy. I seem to remember the Tories being pretty canny about this, with Cameron keeping his head down every time there was bad news to deliver and sending Nick Clegg out to face the press.

There is a lot of clear blue water between them now.

woman12345 · 02/12/2016 09:26

merrymouse me too, but in the 80s, the split centre parties ensured hardline tory rule for another decade. Tories were pulled to a fiercer right. The miners strike, the involvement of US Ian Mac Gregor (hardline Reaganomics, not dissimilar to some Trump policies), Thatcher calling miners 'the enemy within' bit like the traitor stuff now. LGBT were vilified with Section 28 law to 'prevent promotion of homosexuality'.
Many leave voters will have grown up with this political inheritance, and to many, it makes sense. I disagree but understand it: it's simpler when an 'enemy' is named.

lalalonglegs · 02/12/2016 09:28

I don't think anyone is predicting a glorious future for the LibDems, and certainly no one is envisaging them forming a government in the near future, but the lesson of the Richmond Park by-election (and to some extent Witney) is that parties/MPs of any colour cannot rely on their traditional voters. The electorate is becoming more willing to vote tactically to dethrone someone whose politics (or party's politics) no longer represents them.

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2016 09:28

When I looked at the numbers in Richmond, they were interesting. Yes it was 70 remain but of course you wouldn't expect them all to change allegiance. I made the assumption based on the previous ld vote as well as the remain vote and it came out at a 20-25% swing and 20000 would be about the benchmark to win. What I didn't know was who would win as the figures were so tight.

It's matched what I thought pretty well.

If you do use Richmond as a pattern, then May would be safe. But a lot of Conservative MPs would not be.

My methodology is clumsy and I'm sure the parties are much better as it than I am. So they will have a fair idea of where they are at.

There was a private poll conducted during the Richmond by-election. It was speculated that it was done by the conservatives as they didn't have the constraints of expenses. It was never published. I believe lord Ashcroft generally does these for the party, but someone else could have.

Ashcroft was very quiet last night. Very.

For me the result is great publicity more than anything and plants a seed in voters heads that is important psychology for the lds. The 2015 wipe out might have made people think that the lds have no chance in a lot of seats. What Richmond illustrates is that 2010 should also be seriously considered when thinking about voting at the next general especially if you might vote tactically. It's most important in areas which have been Tory / ld marginals.

So it will get conservatives thinking. So far May has put the party not the country first on everything.

Little things are creeping in that make a brexit hard line more difficult to maintain whilst at the same time there are little signs of less of an appetite in the public for hard brexit. And the threat of a large revolt from the kippers seems to be more questionable when only a 100 protestors turn up and farage march that never was disappears.

Even what Davis said yesterday was notably softer. May has been thought to have been really shocked at the EU's hard (but fair and much needed) comments over the last couple of days. May's approach has really driven that.

If there is a pattern though it also would suggest a ukip breakthrough on the cards in a number of places. And a very messy hung parliament very realistic as a prospect.

Logic based on polls says may should call an early general. Logic based on constituency modelling does not.

What May really needs is some good gerrymandering is to get the boundary changes through parliament. But shes got 20 odd MPs who would lose their seats in this including one George Osborne. After the past year any notion that Tory MPs put their party ahead of self interest is rather daft, especially when the conservatives have a majority of 10, and this issue doesn't endear ukip or the dup to it. And the lord's have the majority on it.

The psychology of Richmond is the important thing. Not really how likely it was. It sets a tone and the press will jump all over it with certain questions. The perception not the really is the thing and I think we've all been learning about that one. Ukip, labour and conservatives will all have reasons (some of them good) to downplay it's significance. But then this is the world of sensationalist headlining and click bait. If the express report last night is anything to go by then goldsmith lost by a landslide not 1800 votes. The swing from 2015 has the effect of making it all look a lot worse. As I say psychology.

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woman12345 · 02/12/2016 09:28

Just don't know who to vote for now Confused

harvestmoon32 · 02/12/2016 09:33

merrymouse - I agree that Zac overestimated his ability to stop the runway. He ran a disgraceful mayoral campaign. But he could at least march into TM's office and make a fuss. Sarah Olney has no chance of speaking with a government junior minister about it. I live under the flightpath (but not in Richmond thank god where he noise must be unbearable as the planes are so low) and am now resigned to more noise....

TheNorthRemembers · 02/12/2016 09:37

Why do you think Ashcroft is quiet?

I am so happy about the Libdems. We have to work together. I can't even convince DH about it. He is still upset about my donation to Sarah Olney. He thinks I went over to the dark side.

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2016 09:40

If George's seat goes I think he will stay north. Richmond sounds nice but you could easily get used to life in Tatton. I suspect if someone in a nearby constituency or one of those taking the boundaries from Tatton was to be 'persuaded' to not stand he's happily stay put. I have an idea which he might go to which would work for him and tactically work for the party as a whole. A liberal leaning area would suit him well though, with that in mind. I am wondering how it will pan out if the boundary changes miraculously get through without amendment.

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harvestmoon32 · 02/12/2016 09:48

The thing about Brexit though is we can talk about hard or soft or whatever until we are blue in the face ... at the end of the day we have to take what we're given by the EU 27 member states....of course the next year will be interesting for the EU as it may be in a very different place to today with very different governments in power. Everything is so unknown....

Peregrina · 02/12/2016 09:50

He is still upset about my donation to Sarah Olney. He thinks I went over to the dark side.

My DH is the same, although this didn't stop me going off to Richmond Park twice. He has gone over to the Greens - a complete waste of time locally. He was a reluctant Remainer, but would probably be OK with an EEA arrangement.

I would be less angry about Brexit, if they could formulate a proper plan, instead of the pie in the sky nonsense we have heard for the past 5 months.

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2016 09:50

I think Ashcroft was quiet as he didn't know which way it would go. He was very cocky for the us election and referendum as if he was expecting things to go a certain way.

Harvest, before you design yourself to Heathrow it's worth pointing out that the biggest opposition to Heathrow is likely to come through the courts and not through parliament. This rests on EU laws relating to emissions. Thus a win for the lib Dems is not necessarily as wasted as you might think, if it forces through a softer exit. Goldsmith would not have had any ones ear because May has made the decision and May has demonstrated how she does business (by not listening and acting unilaterally). His ship might well have already sailed in that respect. He couldn't achieve anything additional by being reelected as there was no Conservative for him to stand against and score points over Heathrow.

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