My family's protest vote - about what?

[Mom2Monkeys]

I can't talk to my family about this, as I was the only person who voted remain amongst them. So sorry, I'm letting off steam here.

I am really fed up of my family going on about how they voted Leave as a protest vote and using words like 'exploitation', 'lies', 'struggling', etc, to justify it. My Dad said angrily the other day that 'as a white middle-aged, middle class man he is last in the queue for everything'. It made me fume inside. He means opportunities in life.

He actually believes it. He worked really hard through the years, but my Dad, and the rest of the family, have done pretty well for themselves, when compared with lots of people who ARE actually struggling.
He could have gone to university if he'd wanted (his sister went). He had one stable middle-management job his whole life, with a lucrative pension (cash payout and generous monthly payments), which enabled him to retire in his late forties. He then bought a flat (cash) to rent out as extra income. He also paid off the mortgage on his house completely years ago. He is careful with money and always been a saver, so does OK.

My husband and I, on the other hand, have no personal pension (SAHM and moved around in jobs) and who knows what the state pension will be like when we retire. House prices are now astronomical. Yet, my mother talks to me as if we are really well off and in a better situation than they are (we do OK, but not well off). They don't seem to realise that their retirements are probably way more comfortable than we could ever hope for.

When my family talk about being 'expoited', they are not talking about other people - they believe it about themselves. My aunt, retired in her big country house - talks as if she is the 'under-class', looking up at people better off than her.

Why don't they realise they ARE the ones who've had it good!?!

Good post Scary and I hope your monitoring passed the test.

Re: 'it's my vote, not his', well at least there's no pretence that your vote had his future at heart...

I believe that my vote to Leave was for my children's future as well as my own.

Why do you feel that the only virtuous vote was a vote for Remain?

... and I did actually do a real head tilt when I posted that.

Mango your vote was made with your DC in mind, scary's wasn't.

No, my vote was made by me, for me - not for anyone else.

I voted with many things in mind - one of which was the future of the UK, which by extension is the future of my children.

Fawful If you care about your children, does that mean you have to always agree with them about the best course of action? If you disagree with your child about something, does that demonstrate you don't care about them? What an odd view.

Do you always ask for your children's instructions before you take any action? Do they tell you how to vote in general elections? Oh my, what do you do if you have two children and one tells you to vote Tory and the other says Green? Oh my goodness, you have to decide which one you don't care about. Or you could make your own decision, as I believe most of us do, even those who care about their children.

Couldn't care less about head-tilts...

I voted remain, definitely with my children in mind.

"dapple does Campbrll go on about elites?"
Fawful - A couple of his tweets from the last couple of days:

Nice of Barclay brothers to throw a not at all elitist party at the Ritz for @Nigel_Farage -
Alastair Campbell ‏@campbellclaret

1. It wasn't illegal. 2. TB was an elected PM not a cowardly hideaway leader of an elite posing as friend of people

.

Scary - that was a brilliant post. I agree with every bit of it.
Re the bit about voting for yourself and your DS voting how he likes. I do feel that's fair enough. He had his own vote. I have step children who voted remain whilst we voted leave. But we also have children who are too young to vote so I did think of them as well as myself when I voted leave.

Scary you're the one who said 'I am not bothered how my ds feels about how I voted', so you can't argue his preferences were at the forefront of your mind.
I don't vote at general elections in my EU home country because I don't live there and therefore think it wouldn't be fair for me to have a say on how the country is run. It would feel a bit rude of me to vote for higher taxes when I'm not the one who is going to pay them.

These tweets by Campbell about 'elite' were clear references to Farage's use of the word. He's the only one to use it so it's obviously some sort of parody. Campbell is using that catch-all word to point out inconsistencies. I assume that he himself, like me and most people, doesn't think this word means anything. So no, he's not obsessed about elites.

Scary I completely agree with staying away from Brexit threads if you wish to maintain a normal blood pressure, indeed I advise it.

However I totally disagree that you make your voting decision totally without reference to the interests of the next generation, because the interests of the nest generation are our interests too. The Brexit vote was delivered because those over 46 voted in the majority to leave whilst the majority of those under 46 wanted to stay. I am the exception amongst my generation. We live in a society that is currently top ended, a larger proportion of the population are over 46 and as a result of the opportunities we enjoyed from the 60s onwards we are also sitting on the majority of the wealth to an extent not seen before. We need the younger generation to keep the economy going under the weight of that burden. Our children, be they just starting, or not yet started, in their careers are not going to have the same opportunity. Unless you are extremely blinkered most agree that once Brexit actually happens we are in for at least ten years of economic difficulty even if you believe there is ultimately some magic source of wealth going to emerge in trading in an increasingly competitive global marketplace outside the EU, and I really wish a leave voter would tell me how the fuck that is going to happen, explicitly with reference to industry sectors, rather than some vague reference to a glorious future and faith in the British people. That of course assumes China and the rest of Asia, and of course Trumps America, and the developing economies are just going to roll over and not exploit the opportunities Brexit offers them in terms of the damage to our competitiveness and our desperation to do deals.

So the next generation are going to suffer in the UK. Clearly you agree there will be a brain drain with those who can going overseas as many already are. However it is not that easy. A friend's DC who had attended an Ivy League in the US, then had a scholarship for postgrad and secured a good job with visa attached was recently kicked out of the US because they applied a lottery to the rationing of visas for that occupation, entirely random. That was before Trump. I am one of many eyeing Trudeau's Canada. In the past many of us went away but came back, not in future. Why do you think so many are now applying for EU passports, never has being a Brit been so unpopular..,.

We need young people to pay taxes to fund the baby boomers in living in the manner to which they have become accustomed. The triple lock will go, the NHS is under threat, Brexit will mean that the baby boomers are at risk not just of not having the people willing to wipe their bottoms in their doteage but also the people who would fund it with their taxes.

I agree with ron, and I too am one of the older Remain voters.
I have yet to see anything sensible from the Leave leaders e.g. Johnson, Leasdom, Gove, etc. about what exactly we will trade with the rest of the World.

So far we have seen tea and jam from Leasdom. A Tory, whose name I now forget, suggests we will get cheap food from Africa in return for financial services - which charitably seems unlikely, in any great measure, but acknowledging that yes, we currently get beans and flowers from Kenya.

One of our big money spinners is scientific and medical research, both highly dependent on EU collaboration, so we have just effectively shut the door on that. We could look to enhancing our traditional relationships with India - but May's jaunt to India wasn't all that successful, because it hinged on more visas being available for their citizens - which was a no-no for her.

So which industries are we going to promote to earn ourselves money? Where are the younger workers going to come from? I would love to see some of the noisy ones (as above mentioned) put some serious research into telling us what the answers are.

Fawful the second tweet is nothing to do with Farage. Point 1 refers to the Iraq war and the 'cowardly hideaway leader' is Paul Dacre.

I think age-related voting is a complicated issue and I don't believe it gets us very far to say that younger people want to stay in the EU so we should stay.

ron I think you have made many very good points about the generational wealth divide, but I disagree with your conclusions on how this links with Brexit. In my extended family, it is the very wealthy baby boomers who voted remain and the less well off, and more financially insecure, younger generation who voted leave.

I was told by one remain relative that I needed to think of my children and their ability to travel in Europe and so vote remain. To me, this demonstrates an attitude of just not understanding the financial pressures on younger people - I am far more concerned about increasing globalisation and the increasing inequality in this country being compounded by increasing population. Quite honestly, for me, easy EU travel for my children is a fairly minor concern.

Also, how does it work that younger people knew the "correct" answer to the referendum question, whilst we olders got it wrong, when the turnout amongst 18-24 was the lowest (64%) then increasing with age up to 90% in over 65s? If the younger generation are so much better informed and able to predict the effect of different courses of action than the older generation why didn't more of them vote? I'd suggest it's a bit more complicated than that.

Also, on the point of thinking of future generations when voting, I honestly find it almost impossible to believe that anyone, other than neglectful or abusive parents, didn't do that.

Big difference between old and young (especially the very young) voters is how settled they are. The majority of people aged 18-24 will live in short term lets and move on a fairly frequent basis. This doesn't excuse them not voting, but it does partly explain the lower turnout. It's more effort for them to register than for someone who's lived in the same place for 10 years.

The financial pressures for young people are primarily due to the high cost of housing in the uk. I am highly sceptical that this is primarily due to immigration. It has much more to do with the culture in the uk of treating housing as investment and successive governments propping up the market. Add to that the loss of social housing and an atrocious rental market that drives people to buy as it's the only way to ensure security. How leaving the EU will solve these problems is anyone's guess.

Wrong We have a wish for greater equality in common, however whilst I am quite sure this government will not deliver it, I fail to see how any government can deliver it against a background of falling tax revenues and failing to equip ourselves to compete in the global economy.

However to focus the point of the thread, several of us have highlighted how those older Leave voters are coming out with rhetoric that is at odds with their own situation. Rhetoric, like the label "Remoaner", that is originating in the right wing press not their own experience. They are a generation that grew up with Empire so we're especially receptive to Boris's Churchillian calls to a glorious future and Goves general air of the 1950s. I am quite sure why so many of us are experiencing the same shock at the attitudes of our own parents that OP is expressing is that they are being influenced by the right wing press and that the rhetoric is now entrenched in the echo chambers of their their peers in spite of their actually very comfortable lives.

The younger people I have spoken to (from all backgrounds) who did not vote chose not to because they simply did not feel they knew enough to vote, either because they had looked into it and couldn't decide, or they simply didn't feel they had the information and felt it would be irresponsible to vote on something so important without having any clear reason to vote either way. Of course they do not read the right wing press, which is dying out as a result, apart from the attractions of the Mail Online sidebar of shame and celebrity, with no need to click beyond former I'm a celeb winner Vicky Pattinsons "fat" size 10 stomach. It may well be that their Facebook settings don't even allow untruths to appear their since they basically circulated in the online Facebook echo chambers of those who wanted to see them .

I think you are wrong that young people of all backgrounds are not interested in being able to work abroad. That generation of my family includes some who left school without qualifications, yet they have all travelled, and there are many travelling and working in Europe that are doing so because they can not because they are persuing a career. Retired Migrant / Expat communities in Spain and France are supported by possibly equal numbers of younger people providing them with the comfort of having their building and other services provided by English speakers, quite aside from those working in the tourist industry . The backpackers in places like Goa and Thailand are no longer gap year students, but from all backgrounds. A large proportion of the younger generation do not want to be immunised to the forces of globalisation.

I appreciate that issues of economic inequality between the generations existed before the referendum but that was in part because this government has focused on the older generation, and their votes, to their detriment, failure to invest either money or prestige in vocational training, implementation of increased university fees and loans etc. However I fail to see how imposing years of economic difficulty on them as they try to make their lives is not going to make things a lot worse.

Bolshy - the high price of property - in London, anyway, and for all I know elsewhere - is also sustained by large numbers of properties both new and old being bought as a safe investment and left empty.
The government must be aware of this, but whether they can - or want - to do anything about it is anyone's guess.
I wonder what Sadiq Khan thinks.

Whatwouldrondo - "Of course they do not read the right wing press".
That is interesting. Do the young read any press? Or do they get all their news and current affairs from the Internet, or are they not interested?
I realise that is a generalisation but what do these young people from all backgrounds that you know do?

Dapple Sadiq Khan has been vociferous on the issue, during the mayoral campaign and since, www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/25/sadiq-khan-condemns-foreign-investors-london-homes-gold-bricks-housing-policy, but even before he won the election.I gather though that the lower pound is attracting in more investment than ever of illegally exported currency from Asia.

As to who the young people I have discussed the Brexit vote with, off the top of my head, apart from students and those starting their graduate careers, though not necessarily in graduate entry jobs, in business, science medicine and teaching, then other NHS workers , checkout operators, building workers, electricians, assistants in the fishmongers, care home workers, nursery teachers /nurses . Gardeners, postal workers, thosecin facilities management roles, carpenters, fair few who just do casual work to save up to spend time in Goa /Thailand /Ibiza etc. All these both in London and the north.

Whatwould - thank you for answering my question so fully.
You've certainly spoken to a wide range of people and I'm sure you got a lot of interesting and sometimes unexpected comments.
I wonder how much longer printed newspapers, right and left wing, will last, and whether, given how much free comment is available on the web, if online papers for which you have to pay, will survive.

Yes, very sad these young people don't get much of a voice in established politics. I think the irony is that whilst TM is courting "the people" as defined by the Daily Mail, Farage etc. when in reality they are defining an old and reactionary minority demographic, somebody with more appeal and charisma than Corbyn could come along and give them a voice and political power using the media and means of communication they do understand (and Facebook is not actually it, it was long ago taken over by the parents and grandparents....)

I know many are dispairing of the fall of the Press and the potential for untruth to have free rein but I am not so sure. That is to underestimate our young people and their curious minds which have the skills and ability to seek out information as never before. I think my generation, and even the 40 something's are very ill equipped to understans how that might work.