My family's protest vote - about what?

[Mom2Monkeys]

I can't talk to my family about this, as I was the only person who voted remain amongst them. So sorry, I'm letting off steam here.

I am really fed up of my family going on about how they voted Leave as a protest vote and using words like 'exploitation', 'lies', 'struggling', etc, to justify it. My Dad said angrily the other day that 'as a white middle-aged, middle class man he is last in the queue for everything'. It made me fume inside. He means opportunities in life.

He actually believes it. He worked really hard through the years, but my Dad, and the rest of the family, have done pretty well for themselves, when compared with lots of people who ARE actually struggling.
He could have gone to university if he'd wanted (his sister went). He had one stable middle-management job his whole life, with a lucrative pension (cash payout and generous monthly payments), which enabled him to retire in his late forties. He then bought a flat (cash) to rent out as extra income. He also paid off the mortgage on his house completely years ago. He is careful with money and always been a saver, so does OK.

My husband and I, on the other hand, have no personal pension (SAHM and moved around in jobs) and who knows what the state pension will be like when we retire. House prices are now astronomical. Yet, my mother talks to me as if we are really well off and in a better situation than they are (we do OK, but not well off). They don't seem to realise that their retirements are probably way more comfortable than we could ever hope for.

When my family talk about being 'expoited', they are not talking about other people - they believe it about themselves. My aunt, retired in her big country house - talks as if she is the 'under-class', looking up at people better off than her.

Why don't they realise they ARE the ones who've had it good!?!

I have a friend who I think voted Leave as a 'protest vote'. That's what she told me she was planning to do when we last discussed it a couple of weeks before the referendum. I haven't spoken to her about it since. If she did vote that way, I think it was bloody stupid and wrong-headed and it makes me very angry. She reads the Daily Mail every day, adores Boris Johnson, votes Tory and has tried to tell me in the past that Jeremy Corbyn is a Holocaust denier. She's a good friend, and is wonderful in other ways, so we just try to avoid politics and talk about other things instead. I can well imagine how infuriating it must be to have friends or family members who voted very differently to you and who insist on talking about it at every opportunity. The entire Brexit situation is an unholy shambles from start to finish. I still don't believe it will happen. I may just be living in denial

'When you're used to privilege, equality looks like oppression' - LOVE this. So very true

tiggy - you're absolutely right to say anti-EU sentiment has been rumbling on for decades - but what is this actually based on? The press must take some responsibility for this, with all the Boris-type articles on bent bananas. The narrative has generally been - 'we pay loads of money in and get nothing out ... it all goes to the poorer countries and then we get a load of immigrants taking our jobs, our school places, our doc's appointment' - all the negatives with no mention of the positives: investment into our deprived regions (e.g. parts of Wales and Cornwall - no broadcasting of these facts until it's too late); OUR freedom to live, work, retire in EU countries; EU immigration supporting and enhancing our economy and bringing in much-needed doctors, nurses, carers, builders; a feeling of unity with our nearest neighbours, with whom we have much in common; a peaceful Europe where we work together to uphold our values.
What a shame that we're going to throw all of this away. I am sad for our children that they will be living in a country that has turned its back on its neighbours, that has allowed xenophobic feelings to bubble up and become palatable, that has taken away their rights to live and work abroad, that has closed its doors.

It's a characteristic feature of the authoritarian mindset to see diversity of opinions as a negative, and to want to try to shut down and silence discussion and dissent. The "we won, now shut up" argument reeks of this.
That is the scary thing TBH. And the fact that all politicians seem to be towing the line because they know that if they protest too hard about Brexit, they will get such a huge backlash.

Until now, when one side was going into power, it was OK by everyone that the other side would still air their POV, say they are against xx policy etc...

Now anything that might be interpretated as going 'against the will of people' is fair game to be put down, silenced etc...

Btw re the referendum being advisory, there should have been no need to state that it was because all referendum in the uk are advisory (unless it is made clear it isn't and then there are guidelines about reaching the 2/3 of the votes/electorate etc...). It is not right to say 'but I didn't know' when this is about our constitution and we should all know about, just as we are all supposed to know the law. Otherwise, how the heck are you supposed to vote??

I do have one question before I go, when we refer to statistics and sources of information- how often do we question the reliability and accuracy of the source? As we all know, some broad spectrum data can be misinterpreted.
^^ perhaps an argument for why some people didn't vote???

Generally speaking the UK doesn't govern by Referenda. One of my friends asked why we were having one when we had a Parliament to decide those questions for us.

And the fact that all politicians seem to be towing the line because they know that if they protest too hard about Brexit, they will get such a huge backlash.

I wonder how big the backlash would be? Yesterday's demo outside Parliament wasn't all that well attended - a couple of hundred people, and a dating agency bus went and stole the show.

Well yeah the poor and disadvantaged are, over the next five years, about to get really poor and disadvantaged, and their ranks will swell, so we'll have to wait and see what will happen...

I think you're getting into dangerous territory when you are angry with your family for their opinions. Your dad and the rest of your family are presumably coherent enough to decide which way to vote. How would you feel if they were incensed with rage that you voted Remain? Sometimes in life people will disagree with you. Everyone is entitled to their own views and opinion based on their feelings and experiences. YABU.

To return to the issue of being able to discuss Brexit with people we disagree with, OP (I think) said

I think reasonable rational political debate is what we DO need. Everytime I try to do it with my family I get shut down with insults and labels (which I absolutely have not been doing to anybody). They don't want to have discussion or debate. I can't get anywere near discussing anything to do with Brexit. I don't think anyone has said on here that political views should not be discussed

I recognise this but as a leave voter. I think it is very difficult to discuss these issues. I think the situation which has arisen in this country regarding our inability to discuss political issues is frightening. I don't know what the answer is but I think it is doing so much damage. It's like the referendum has opened up some old scars we didn't even know were there.

ron has referred to the intergenerational divide and I think this had been festering away for a long time before the referendum without people being able to discuss it openly (without wanting to open a hornet's nest: wealthy pensioner parents with houses worth a fortune whilst their children and grandchildren are either saddled with massive mortgages or can't afford a house at all, etc etc) and is a separate issue to Brexit, although obviously related as many have explained.

It seems there is so much that people can't really express now (much of it related to inequality in our society) and I'm sure fault lies on both sides of the referendum divide.

What I have a problem with, are voters who are now acting as if they belong to that group of 'disadvantaged', 'struggling', 'left behind', 'not benefitted from the status quo' group, who quite clearly have done very well for themselves

This is really interesting and I am trying to think of something intelligent to say about this, but can't get far. I would be interested to hear if anyone else can explain why people do this - are they just saying what they think is acceptable, even though it's plainly not true of them, because they think what they really think is unacceptable?

WT TBH I have never seen British people as people who are happy to debate politics. It's too much into the 'we are having an argument' territory that most people avoid.

When there was the Scottish referendum, I remember talking to some mums from school. One mentioned the results and the other quickly asked to change the subject 'as we had talked a lot about politics already so we'd better move on'.
The same attitude are present except that this time it's so big and so polarised that no discussion is possible on the top of not knowing how to discuss politics.
It's a shame because it's NOW that we really need people able tthat discuss wo shutting the other person down werheas it seems to me that ANY discussion is frowned upon, even when it's about how to do Brexit.

I do think that in the UK a lot of people have been left behind, but this is not the fault of the EU. It's due to a raft of domestic conditions brought about by our own governments over the years. I've lived in Germany - a country that is very similar to us in many ways. There, you can rent an excellent flat in a good location, with easy access to great public transport, for a far smaller percentage of your salary than in the UK. This means you have more money to spend and/or to save. I know many German pensioners who are still renting a flat, but who were able over the years to plan for and save for that eventuality, with no fear of being booted out. Eating out is cheaper, public transport is better, apprenticeships are valued so trades receive full respect, private schools are almost non-existent so class divisions are less problematic, uni tuition fees are negligible. There are of course conditions in Germany that are not preferable to the UK, e.g.once you've chosen your degree/profession it's very difficult to change your mind and get a job outside of that. However, I do think that Brits tend to just accept and put up with stuff (e.g. ridiculous house prices, crap public transport, school catchment/private school divisions, hideously high uni fees) - it DOES NOT have to be like this and it's NOT the fault of the EU.

To go back to the original topic of the thread, all the leave voters I know are also retired, and most are white and live in rural areas with very little ethnic diversity. Not all of them are well off but they are all in a position where they no longer need to worry about jobs or mortgages (paid off years ago). 4/5 of them voted because of immigration. Luckily, they are not close family members, so I can easily avoid discussing Brexit with them.
I try really hard not to get angry about it, but when I look at the projected figures for the future I'm just plain scared. I think it's easy to talk about "short term pain" when you're not paying off a massive mortgage and trying to save up a tiddly pension.

In terms of people who didn't vote- my husband works in a very, very deprived area. He says many people there do not vote because:
A) their lives are chaotic
B) many are forced to move on a regular basis due to short term lets, making registration harder
C) they don't feel that the government has ever had a positive effect on their lives, they are politically detached.

Depressing but wholly understandable.

Totally agree with hummus about British people not wanting to talk about politics. Drives me up the wall, especially as I grew up in quite a politicised family and we're all used to a good argument

What makes me even more mad is the number of friends I have who thinks it's particularly bad for women to talk politics. Why, ffs? I just don't get it.

Hummus I think that is partly true (avoid politics, sex and religion...) but I do think that post-ref (and post indy-ref from what I have heard) it has got infinitly worse. Fwiw, I don't think most leave supports want to shut down debate and for remainers to "stop complaining". I certainly don't and I think only one person on this thread has said anything along these lines (might be wrong). Also I think there is a big difference between trying to shut down debate and saying, we had a referendum and now the result should be implemented, not overturned, which is just expressing an opinion, the same as remainers saying they think leaving would be a mistake.

I also don't think that many people (myself included) don't want to discuss Brexit. I think many are frightened to do so, for the reasons discussed above (arguments, name calling, damage to relationships etc - both sides). I have had a close relationship severely damaged by post-ref fall out. It is really hard to know who you can talk to about what. And we should be able to talk without all the aggro. I believe very strongly that if we can't get passed this and start being able to discuss politics and have disagreements without name calling and sterotyping and slurs, the country is not going to get out of what is, frankly, a really big mess.

I agree with you wrongtrouser, although I think it's ok to say you disagree with an opinion or that you think it's wrong. The key is it should be a debate (i.e. Reasoned, polite), not an argument. I think part of the reason we're in the state that we're in is because we won't talk about politics. The only people that have spoken to me about their leave vote are the boorish ones who voted for fairly abhorrent reasons (e.g. our racist off license owner ). If I'd heard more from the more reasonable side of the leave vote and we'd had a more open debate in the days after the vote, I think I would have felt a lot more reassured and a lot less angry. The quiet, reasonable need to shake off their Britishness and speak up (politely, obvious)!

The cognitive dissonance it must involve to think that you're involved in a great 'stick it up to the elites/experts' when you're cheerleaders are the millionaires Farage, Boris, Jacob Rees Mogg and the Daily Mail! It's incredible, isn't it.

I too think Brexit must go ahead now but I think economically we're completely fucked (which of course brings a whole raft of issues). I don't know how people are going to get past not being able to afford food for other people's freedom.That IS a tricky one.

'The cognitive dissonance it must involve to think that you're involved in a great 'stick it up to the elites/experts' when you're cheerleaders are the millionaires Farage, Boris, Jacob Rees Mogg and the Daily Mail!'

It certainly is incredible. Boris Johnson being considered an enemy of the elite! And who needs experts anyway? Experts - people who have worked, studied, researched in their chosen field, often for many years and have valuable knowledge and experience to share. Balls to that!

We're living through a great festival of stupidity I'm afraid. Its beyond depressing

I agree that we should not shy away from talking about politics. That's why we're in this mess in the first place because the majority of us don't know enough about our own constitution and the EU ... myself included, and it's been a steep learning curve since the summer for me! I have leavers in my family and circle of friends and I will continue to discuss this issue with them. Some voted as they want the money that went to the EU spent here - understandable, but it looks as though there will be less money in general thanks to Brexit and the promises to the NHS have already been retracted. Some voted as they don't agree with uncontrolled immigration - again, understandable as it makes infrastructure planning difficult and there are issues of integration - but we have control over non EU immigration - we don't use it, it will be difficult for us to continue expanding economically and it has been admitted that immigration will not fall as a result of Brexit - it will just come from elsewhere. So far, I'm not convinced by their reasons but I will continue to debate because otherwise we may as well just partition the country with half remaining in the EU, the other half out!

Now there an idea

If I'd heard more from the more reasonable side of the leave vote and we'd had a more open debate in the days after the vote, I think I would have felt a lot more reassured and a lot less angry. The quiet, reasonable need to shake off their Britishness and speak up (politely, obvious)!

This is very true Bolshy but they should be able to do so in the expectation that they are not called names etc etc when they do (again, on both sides) which is probably not possible at the moment.

But I think your post highlights another really odd thing which is going on which is, in my experience many remainders (I have never experienced this from a leaver, so just my point of view) launch into a Brexit rant or moan without it crossing their mind that I might not agree with them (eg ringing me up to commiserate on the ref result, saying oh yes that was a terrible day etc). As I've said, we were over 70% leave in my area so it is really odd that anyone would assume that anyone else voted remain (well, or leave come to that).

So I think there is some odd psychology going on with some people being completely unable to process the fact that "people like them" might have voted differently. Can't explain it, but it is odd and I think it is adding to the division - hence my wish for compulsory Ashford poll indoctrination for all, because this might make people have to face up to the fact, which is glaringly obvious if you look properly at the statistics, that lots of "people like them" voted leave.

Wrong I think there is an issue that is deeper than and separate from the issue of economic equality between the generations. In my case we were raised with certain values about fairness and equality, my parents were pro EU and their circle of friends francophiles, to the extent some retired there. They always saw my move to London as unfortunate for me, they had no interest in "the smoke", since they asserted that the quality of life was much better in the North, and for them it is. They came from working class backgrounds but appreciated they had benefitted from "Never having it so good". They both engaged in local community activities and have made a positive difference to peoples' lives both in their work and private lives, and stood up for their liberal values, as we were taught it was our responsibility to do, They worked alongside immigrants, both Asian and Eastern European, without comment.

I understand the tendency to become right wing in your old age but I feel they have been hijacked by some sort of cult. The sudden onset of vitriol about "London elites", fucking Juncker, immigrants taking doctor's appointments and school places, my suburb having been taken over by Eastern Europeans (as in a Polish Cafe and a Hungarian deli), our prisons overflowing with immigrants criminals (they claim the untruth that half of all prisoners are immigrants came from the BBC) is out of the blue. Like OP I was staggered at the sudden onset of these attitudes, especially since some of that vitriol is directed at me.

The problem is that they sit watching the news and reading the newspapers (Times/ Mail on Sunday) for a significant proportion of the day, far more time than anyone who has a job. The extent to which it has affected their attitudes and perceptions out of all proportion to their identity and experience is frankly frightening.

I'm a scientist wrongtrousers. The "people like me" like me that voted leave are very few and far between.

I don't think its a 'people like us' thing particularily.

It is more that some remainers do still struggle to believe friends and family seriously went for the UKIP/Farage option to plunge this country into certain economic and social disarray for a nebulous set of values such as 'take back control'.