My family's protest vote - about what?

[Mom2Monkeys]

I can't talk to my family about this, as I was the only person who voted remain amongst them. So sorry, I'm letting off steam here.

I am really fed up of my family going on about how they voted Leave as a protest vote and using words like 'exploitation', 'lies', 'struggling', etc, to justify it. My Dad said angrily the other day that 'as a white middle-aged, middle class man he is last in the queue for everything'. It made me fume inside. He means opportunities in life.

He actually believes it. He worked really hard through the years, but my Dad, and the rest of the family, have done pretty well for themselves, when compared with lots of people who ARE actually struggling.
He could have gone to university if he'd wanted (his sister went). He had one stable middle-management job his whole life, with a lucrative pension (cash payout and generous monthly payments), which enabled him to retire in his late forties. He then bought a flat (cash) to rent out as extra income. He also paid off the mortgage on his house completely years ago. He is careful with money and always been a saver, so does OK.

My husband and I, on the other hand, have no personal pension (SAHM and moved around in jobs) and who knows what the state pension will be like when we retire. House prices are now astronomical. Yet, my mother talks to me as if we are really well off and in a better situation than they are (we do OK, but not well off). They don't seem to realise that their retirements are probably way more comfortable than we could ever hope for.

When my family talk about being 'expoited', they are not talking about other people - they believe it about themselves. My aunt, retired in her big country house - talks as if she is the 'under-class', looking up at people better off than her.

Why don't they realise they ARE the ones who've had it good!?!

Lots of my Tory friends voted Tory because 'the Tories are business-minded' - now they're regretting their vote because their companies are being negatively affected by the Brexit vote. And look at the deficit - it's out of control! Austerity didn't work and Brexit is just compounding the problems. This government have been an absolute disaster - trickle down is a myth ... it's only been trickle up from what I can see. Gove has wrecked the teaching profession, Hunt is destroying the NHS, Help to Buy kept house prices artificially high and out of reach for young people, zero hours contracts strip people of job-security. The time for a protest vote was back in 2015 when we had a chance of something better for everyone.

From previous (recent) posts:

The quiet, reasonable need to shake off their Britishness and speak up (politely, obvious)!

This is very true Bolshy but they should be able to do so in the expectation that they are not called names etc etc when they do

So I think there is some odd psychology going on with some people being completely unable to process the fact that "people like them" might have voted differently.

it started in the campaigning. Obama is a "good man" and he supported remain. Farage is a "bad man" and he supported leave
Leavers are motivated by sovereignty which is old fashioned and immigration which is racist.
Remainers are motivated by togetherness and unity which are modern and virtuous qualities etc etc
It became more than the issues or the topics or the debates. It became about a right answer and a wrong answer and many people still see it in those terms (hence trying to explain that the very gullible or very selfish were the ones who tipped the vote the wrong way).

The above posts very reasoned & well put points re the divide.
The following (also recent) posts prove the points made above:

The cognitive dissonance it must involve to think that you're involved in a great 'stick it up to the elites/experts' when you're cheerleaders are the millionaires Farage, Boris, Jacob Rees Mogg and the Daily Mail! It's incredible, isn't it.

We're living through a great festival of stupidity I'm afraid. Its beyond depressing

I'm a scientist wrongtrousers. The "people like me" like me that voted leave are very few and far between.

And in one post, a complete contradiction:

I don't think its a 'people like us' thing particularily.
*
It is more that some remainers do still struggle to believe friends and family seriously went for the UKIP/Farage option to plunge this country into certain economic and social disarray for a nebulous set of values such as 'take back control'.*

So, it is a 'people like us' thing then?!
I.e. Friends & family voting the 'wrong' way by voting the opposite way to you.

Brilliant post Tiggy.

That's not a contradiction at all. I struggle to understand why people who are nothing at all like me would make that choice too!

The cognitive dissonance it must involve to think that you're involved in a great 'stick it up to the elites/experts' when you're cheerleaders are the millionaires Farage, Boris, Jacob Rees Mogg and the Daily Mail! It's incredible, isn't it.

Whats your objection to this one?

In the Uk, it has always ben about 'people like us'. Just see how the class system is working and how working class peole look at MC or shock horror the elite. There is a very strong sense of being part of a group and yes its all about 'people like us'.

The difference is that before voting Labour or Tory didnt make a huge difference. It pushed things a bit more one way or the other but there hasnt been a great deal of difference between them for a while. They were both on the 'right' of the political scene (Neo liberalism etc...).

The vote for Brexit is VERY different kettle of fish. First of all by the sheer size of its consequences. But also because its irreversible. With normal vote, you get to have a say after 5 years or so. Things that have been put in place can be changed/modified/replaced. Not so much with Brexit ....

It is more that some remainers do still struggle to believe friends and family seriously went for the UKIP/Farage option to plunge this country into certain economic and social disarray for a nebulous set of values such as 'take back control'.
I agree with this. I only know two leave voters. One voted leave because she 'thought it was time for a change'; the other because she wanted the NHS to have more money. Given how high the stakes are, it makes me furious to think we are being dragged through this monumentally expensive, ill-conceived, disruptive crap because people voted using such poor logic*, while extreme right racists laugh from the sidelines.

I'm also angry about being described as a thoughltless 'elite' and about being told that 'the short term financial pain will be worth it in the long run'. Many of us will not weather any short term pain, let alone a few years' worth.

*Yes, yes, I know some people may have voted for other, more sensible reasons, but I'm talking about the leave voters I know.

I know some who voted Leave. One initially thought Farage's opinions attractive, went to hear him speak, and came away thinking he was a nutter. Still voted Leave and now doesn't want to talk about it, but I think we can assume it wasn't because of racism or xenophobia.

I'm also fed up with being called part of a Metropolitan Elite. I am most definitely not metropolitan, and if you had to pick either me or Farage as being part of the elite, you wouldn't pick me.

I'm in the same position in that, of the people I know I know that voted leave, 3 are full blown racists (as in threatening to disown their kids if they brought home a partner of a different ethinicity). My mums friends that voted leave did so because they thought that the Euro was a sign of the end of days as told in the book of revelations
Then, in the days after the referendum, a lot of extremely right wing leave pages popped up on my Facebook feed. Scared the crap out of me, if I'm honest.

Whilst I know that these are not representative of the views of most leavers, because this is my personal experience it's hard for me to see beyond it. I genuinely don't know anyone in my immediate sphere that voted leave, so it IS hard for me to understand it. My Tory voting, telegraph reading relatives voted remain.

I do know of one leaver who voted for financial reasons and every time I speak to his daughter (voted remain) I ask her if he's given her some reassurance about what he thinks will happen in the future as I am genuinely a bit desperate to hear good things about Brexit.

Like many remainers, I just really, really want reassurance that the future will not be shit. That's it, really.

Clearly the US is having a similar experience - some tweets

No one in my family voted for Trump so let me know if you want me to come over and argue with your family this Thanksgiving

I kinda wish you all had talked to your racist relatives last Thanksgiving.

it's not even thanksgiving and it's already "we can't speak anymore about politics or someone's going to throw a glass" o'clock at my house

Buy conservative relatives the Hamilton Mixtape for Christmas.

I feel your pain, Op. Am in a similar position. Both parents voted leave as did brothers and their wives. Only me and my sister voted remain.
My parents are brainwashed by the Daily Fail and whilst this has been irritating in the past it's now infuriating. I hear them repeating the crap they read and they are definitely brainwashed.
One brother was undecided so voted Leave . The other just wanted control back.
Family relations aren't great, it's the elephant in the room.

But if the polls are all wrong because people don't want to say on the record how they are going to vote, and if lots of you remainers out there only know a handful of leave voters (and the ones you do know are some variation of a bit daft/racist/Nigel Farage loving/etc) and given that nowhere was the leave vote less than 20% and up to 75% at the highest, don't you think it's possible that you might actually know some leave voters but they haven't told you because they are reasonable, friendly people and they don't want to argue with you?

I voted leave. I am glad I voted leave. I don't hide it, I displayed a leave poster. But plenty of my acquaintances and some friends think I voted remain. If some one asks me, I'll tell them. If they just assume and rant on about leavers I just change the subject. I think some people might be making assumptions and unfortunately unless and until the atmosphere improves, people might not feel able to say how they voted.

I didn't say my friend was a bit daft, he's perfectly sensible - that was his opinion of Farage. But we voted Remain in our area, so when he said he voted Leave I don't doubt that he did.

don't you think it's possible that you might actually know some leave voters but they haven't told you because they are reasonable, friendly people and they don't want to argue with you
Not in my case, because all my friends are as appalled and angry as I am. I work in a university, so my colleagues are extremely worried about the impact on overseas/EU student recruitment and what will happen with research funding. I very much doubt they're 'secret leavers'

unless and until the atmosphere improves
I doubt that's going to happen until someone (our glorious PM?) acknowledges that more than 16 million people voted AGAINST leaving and should have their wishes taken into account too. We are also citizens. We are also voters. While many of us could maybe come to terms with a soft Brexit, the crap that May came out with at Tory conference and the fact that 5 months after the vote there still appears to be no semblance of a plan, is far from reassuring. IMO the anti-immigration rhetoric and clear lack of a plan is doing the very opposite of 'improving the atmosphere'.

I know zillions of leave voters, I live in leave heartlands. I still find it hard to understand why people made such a self-destructive vote - especially those who are not 'comfortably off' right now. That's up to them of course, shrug, but you were asking why people automatically assume you voted remain.
That's why I would, but I wouldn't say it aloud, only on here

There were quite a few Leavers that 'confided' in other (out & unashamed) Leavers how they voted.

They didn't reveal that they had voted Leave to even their friends, let alone co-workers due to the nasty backlash experienced at the hands of Remainers immediately after the ref.
Am in no way saying that all Remainers were guilty of vitriol, just giving some perspective as to the 'quiet leavers'.

Also, if you know literally no Leavers amongst your circle of friends, acquaintances & work colleagues, then your social media etc is likely to resemble an echo chamber.
I have Remain & Leave friends - more Leavers than Remainers but a fair mix nonetheless.
We've disagreed & debated various things wrt Brexit, but none of us have fallen out thus far.

the crap that May came out with at Tory conference
When is she going to wake up to the reality that this put moderate Tories off? 19,000 votes lost in Witney was not exactly a ringing endorsement of her stance. Many Tories were absolutely appalled.

Whilst it's possible that some of the school mums that I talk to in passing (and don't generally discuss politics with) voted leave, I'm 100% certain that none of my close friends did as we have discussed it. I thought some of my family might have done but the ones I've spoken to all voted remain. I'm not an arsehole, btw, and can discuss differences with people without being "scary". I think it's just that my demographic (uni educated, higher degree, public sector) generally voted remain. That's not a judgement, just a fact. I tend to make friends with likeminded people, as is human nature.

On Facebook (now hate flippin' FB), there were some friends of mine who were openly critical of Leave voters. Mainly saying they were stupid or suggesting they were ill-informed. I actually posted several times saying that no-one should be labelling and making it personal. I wrote a comment saying that most of my family voted Leave and they are educated, informed, people.

However, when the tide turned, and Leave voters reacted to the backlash with their own little nasty backlash - labelling Remainers, telling them to shut-up, etc. My family conveniently forgot the nice things I wrote and I was spoken to as if the criticisms of the Leavers came out of my mouth. I had only posted a few factual articles that were pro-Remain (but as I said previously, not anything that could be taken as criticism). Their is so much anger towards me.

I now see a lot of nasty posts from Leavers to Remainers on FB, and not much going the other way. Some of my old school friends who voted Leave have quite noticably stopped 'liking' or commenting on any of my posts/photos, that are not even politics related. I feel the fall-out is bitter.

I imagine, by 2021, far fewer people will admit to voting leave. Joys of the secret ballot!

My in laws voted out. Apparently my MIL thought Johnson was a "nice man" and she was worried about Turkey joining the EU. I really have to bite my tongue they benefited from right to buy years ago, have no mortgage and are a couple of years from a comfortable retirement. Thy live in a complete bubble unaware of the hardships of others. They also happen to live a town that has received stacks of EU funding. MIL suffers from cognitive dissonance on many issues!

I was just thinking exactly that about the US whatwouldrondo fingers crossed it's not France next...

They didn't reveal that they had voted Leave to even their friends, let alone co-workers due to the nasty backlash experienced at the hands of Remainers immediately after the ref.

Or maybe they were embarrassed by the other really nasty backlash. The one that saw foreigners getting beaten up, nasty laminated notes being pushed through Polish people's letterboxes etc etc

Even the language used: 'admit to' voting Leave is implying that it's 'wrong' or there should be shame involved.

It's just a person, who happened to vote for leave as opposed to Remain.

Or maybe they were embarrassed by the other really nasty backlash. The one that saw foreigners getting beaten up, nasty laminated notes being pushed through Polish people's letterboxes <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html" target="_blank">etc etcc*

No, twofingers, the people I am talking about specifically said that it was the vitriolic, nasty backlash that they witnessed against Leave voters on social media (including mn).