My family's protest vote - about what?

[Mom2Monkeys]

I can't talk to my family about this, as I was the only person who voted remain amongst them. So sorry, I'm letting off steam here.

I am really fed up of my family going on about how they voted Leave as a protest vote and using words like 'exploitation', 'lies', 'struggling', etc, to justify it. My Dad said angrily the other day that 'as a white middle-aged, middle class man he is last in the queue for everything'. It made me fume inside. He means opportunities in life.

He actually believes it. He worked really hard through the years, but my Dad, and the rest of the family, have done pretty well for themselves, when compared with lots of people who ARE actually struggling.
He could have gone to university if he'd wanted (his sister went). He had one stable middle-management job his whole life, with a lucrative pension (cash payout and generous monthly payments), which enabled him to retire in his late forties. He then bought a flat (cash) to rent out as extra income. He also paid off the mortgage on his house completely years ago. He is careful with money and always been a saver, so does OK.

My husband and I, on the other hand, have no personal pension (SAHM and moved around in jobs) and who knows what the state pension will be like when we retire. House prices are now astronomical. Yet, my mother talks to me as if we are really well off and in a better situation than they are (we do OK, but not well off). They don't seem to realise that their retirements are probably way more comfortable than we could ever hope for.

When my family talk about being 'expoited', they are not talking about other people - they believe it about themselves. My aunt, retired in her big country house - talks as if she is the 'under-class', looking up at people better off than her.

Why don't they realise they ARE the ones who've had it good!?!

It's purely a response to your idea that people 'confided in' and 'didn't reveal' their vote.

Somewhat confused why Tories would vote out as a protest vote against Cameron/Osborne. They voted for a party led by Cameron/Osborne a mere 13 months before the referendum!

It's purely a response to your idea that people 'confided in' and 'didn't reveal' their vote.

Not an 'idea', actual fact.

Well, it's true, brexiters have been abused, attacked in the streets and even murdered for their views since June. You can clearly see why they've kept quiet- driven underground even.

Oh, my mistake, I meant remainers and foreigners.

Btw, so good of the daily mail to give a cheeky little mention the jo cox murder verdict on page 30 today. They're consistent, aren't they!

Nobody said anything about Brexiters being attacked in the streets or murdered - why resort to ridiculous hyperbole like that?

Oh ok the vitriolic nasty backlash on social media! My heart bleeds - will no one think of the poor undercover brexit voter? they are sufffering so!

Do you speak to/about leave voters like that in rl birdy?
Or just on an anonymous forum?

Just anonymously- my family are brexiters

unless and until the atmosphere improves
"I doubt that's going to happen until someone (our glorious PM?) acknowledges that more than 16 million people voted AGAINST leaving and should have their wishes taken into account too. We are also citizens. We are also voters. While many of us could maybe come to terms with a soft Brexit, the crap that May came out with at Tory conference and the fact that 5 months after the vote there still appears to be no semblance of a plan, is far from reassuring. IMO the anti-immigration rhetoric and clear lack of a plan is doing the very opposite of 'improving the atmosphere'*

twofingers You are talking about how the PM and government act but on this thread we are talking about how people behave towards each other in communities and families. We are each responsible for how we talk to and about other people and whether we help improve the atmosphere or make it worse.

We can be angry or feel that things are not going the way we hope, but why does that mean we shouldn't try to be civil to other people who we may have very much in common with? Perhaps I have misunderstood you though.

I have had plenty of civilised conversations with those who voted leave that I have encountered in the course of my work and private life. None of my friends voted leave, we were all united in the grief for our identity and for the future of the country. However plenty of acquaintanances did. It isn't just that there was a significant leave vote in London generally but also even in the City I have encountered leave voters. They are mainly those in areas of the City like the private banks who will be relieved to see less regulation some of which they regard as nonsensical. I can have a perfectly sensible and respectful conversation with those people without being told I am the London elite or a Remoaner but not with my own parents?

I actually challenged the latter, pointed out how tribal it was, and got a look of shock and incomprehension. I honestly think that is how they think we speak these days, at an insidious everyday level it is open season for hate and resentment.

Do you not think that the Government should provide some sort of lead, WrongTrouser? Make it clear that xenophobic views are not the sort of values this country likes to promote. Instead they lead the way with them at their recent party conference, and had to do a certain amount of quick backtracking when they realised that people regarded their behaviour as repugnant.

Hence, despite Theresa May declaring that "the country is open for business", many people from other countries have judged by the Government's behaviour and decided to go elsewhere. As always, actions speak louder than words.

I'm 100% certain that none of my close friends did (vote leave) as we have discussed it
I tend to make friends with likeminded people, as is human nature

I think this highlights one of the points I am trying to make. I also tend to make friends with likeminded people, as is human nature. However I voted leave and most of my closest friends (not all) voted remain. Neither they nor I have undergone a personality transplant in the last few months. Therefore, likeminded people can vote different ways.

I am not questioning your point that you know your friends voted in the same way as you, just trying to explain why I think the categorising of "people like me" doesn't fully hold water in all situations.

Peregrina Yes, I do think the government should take a lead. I've never been a great supporter of the Tories and I don't believe they are handling things particularly well in terms of trying to heal the rifts. Can't say I think the Labour party are helping much either. And I think there are plenty of other people (press, commentators) stoking division and making a difficult situation worse. I think everyone of a right mind who wants to heal the divisions needs to make the best of a pretty grim situation, and consider how their behaviour effects the situation for good or bad, which is difficult as many people are very angry and/or unable to understand others' choices.

Given the divisions that are being stoked by the press and politicians and given the gloating (there is no other word for it) that is evident on social media, including some threads on MN, is it really so surprising that remain voters feel alienated from leave voters? If 'healing the divisions' means shutting up and accepting a situation that we believe is disastrous, well - some of us aren't ready to do that. I'm sick of being called a remoaner, remainiac, elite etc blah blah. How about some of the Brexit voters (like OP's family) try and make some moves in the right direction? How about the people in the ridiculous Brexit Arms, who are saying 'don't care if it costs billions...' showing some empathy for people who will suffer/are already suffering as a result of their votes?

Twofingers, you may be sick of being called a remoaner, elite, reminiscent etc and I understand that sentiment.

Please also try to understand that Leave voters had more than enough racist, xenophobe, stupid, selfish, etc in the aftermath and still now.

Just recently (today on mn) we've had Kool Aid, stupid, cognitive dissonance, unicorns and bullies levelled our way.

I don't disagree with any of that twofingers. Gloating, name calling, OP's family's behaviour, lack of empathy for others, it is wrong whoever it is from and to. But I genuinely don't see why all that crap going on should affect how any remain voter feels and acts towards any leave voter and vice versa, if those people have had nothing to do with the crap. I don't see why it should make remain voters feel alienated from leave voters. We are not a hive mind and I believe there is as much in common between many leave and remain voters as between each 'side'.

And I don't think that healing the divisions means anyone shutting up and accepting the situation if they disagree with it. Quite the reverse, I think the best hope is if we can start being able to talk and argue about politics again, but without the insults.

Cognitive dissonance is unacceptable now?

The atmosphere will improve when brexit works and our economy is stable.
ie not in my lifetime.

Although having now had a quick look round the door of the Brexit Arms (haven't rtft) some regulars do seem to be expressing empathy for people who are facing difficulties as a result of Brexit so you are perhaps being unfair there twofimgers

I'm a secret leave voter, in one friendship group anyway. Secret because my main set of friends have gone ballistic on social media and in person about the stupidity of the 'fucking poor'. They think I'm angry about the vote too.
One of them has voted ukip in the past, but is appalled at the result for economic reasons.
It really does beggar belief and I'm shocked and hurt at their intolerance and hatred. You think you know people!
Basically, people can be twats and that can be said for both sides.

In my family (all graduates), all generations voted leave except for 1 grandparent who voted remain.
What is interesting is that 2 of the younger generation were not brave enough to admit to voting leave at their workplace in the City. They reckon they would have been ostracised.
One of the other young " leavers " works in the NHS and the other a City lawyer.
Sovereignty and immigration were all. The economy didn't figure at all and still doesn't.

"Oh ok the vitriolic nasty backlash on social media! My heart bleeds - will no one think of the poor undercover brexit voter? they are sufffering so! "
Blimey birdy I hope I never get on the wrong side of you in rl.

If we should meet in rl, dapple, I'll make sure not to be sarcastic.

It will be really difficult to heal the divisions now present in this country. Probably the safest course of action would have been to do a Norway type deal straight after 23rd June. As others have said, remainers would have accepted this (even though it would be pointless - same obligations, but no say), and Leavers would have got their Brexit. But after that Tory conference, we ended up looking at a hard Brexit, with disturbing xenophobic undertones, where everyone loses. I really think that we need either another referendum with the actual terms of leaving spelled out OR a general election, where manifestos spell our their Brexit policy in detail ... otherwise I can see this country splintering - Scotland and NI will go ... and in that scenario, I'll be looking to move to Scotland if they manage to stay in the EU. I'm yet to hear an argument to convince me that Brexit is a good thing. Can anyone explain to me what we gain from Brexitting, that we didn't have before?

I was in a pub the other day where a group were talking about Brexit. A young girl was surprised to hear that an older Gent voted leave. When she stated that it meant less chances of them working abroad, he responded that he had an Irish passport so he wasn't concerned. The look on the poor girls face was so sad. She couldn't continue the conversation.

That sounds like someone I know,RBeer, who was recounting how of the four at her workplace, two (including her) had voted to remain, and two to leave. One of the leavers had been straight on the internet to try to sort out Irish passports for her children.

My friend was quite upset, as you can imagine.