My family's protest vote - about what?

[Mom2Monkeys]

I can't talk to my family about this, as I was the only person who voted remain amongst them. So sorry, I'm letting off steam here.

I am really fed up of my family going on about how they voted Leave as a protest vote and using words like 'exploitation', 'lies', 'struggling', etc, to justify it. My Dad said angrily the other day that 'as a white middle-aged, middle class man he is last in the queue for everything'. It made me fume inside. He means opportunities in life.

He actually believes it. He worked really hard through the years, but my Dad, and the rest of the family, have done pretty well for themselves, when compared with lots of people who ARE actually struggling.
He could have gone to university if he'd wanted (his sister went). He had one stable middle-management job his whole life, with a lucrative pension (cash payout and generous monthly payments), which enabled him to retire in his late forties. He then bought a flat (cash) to rent out as extra income. He also paid off the mortgage on his house completely years ago. He is careful with money and always been a saver, so does OK.

My husband and I, on the other hand, have no personal pension (SAHM and moved around in jobs) and who knows what the state pension will be like when we retire. House prices are now astronomical. Yet, my mother talks to me as if we are really well off and in a better situation than they are (we do OK, but not well off). They don't seem to realise that their retirements are probably way more comfortable than we could ever hope for.

When my family talk about being 'expoited', they are not talking about other people - they believe it about themselves. My aunt, retired in her big country house - talks as if she is the 'under-class', looking up at people better off than her.

Why don't they realise they ARE the ones who've had it good!?!

Voting leave and then going off to get your Irish passport is completely hypocritical and if I supported remain I would be very angry with people who do that. But I would say that lots of people are quite hypocritical when it comes to politics. I know people who vote Labour and then do every last thing they can to minimise their tax and people who complain about the widening disparity between rich and poor and then buy-to-let (leave voters incidentally). That doesn't make scurrying off to get your Irish passport ok, but it's not exclusively a leave voter issue.

Oops - That should have said (remain voters incidentally)

The whole Irish passport thing is another case of the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude. Both leavers and remainers I know have used this already used this loop hole for themselves and their family and can now relax and sit back, because they're fine whatever. Unfortunately for me and my family, we have no Irish ancestry or any EU ancestry to lean back on. This means our plans to semi-retire in Italy, to send our kids to uni in Holland, to give our kids the same freedoms to live and work abroad as we had, are shafted. And that's the selfish reason why I am anti-Brexit. The non-selfish reasons are the economic ones - it'll make us all poorer ... for what gain?

"Voting leave and then going off to get your Irish passport is completely hypocritical and if I supported remain I would be very angry with people who do that."

WrongTrouser Why should only Remain voters be angry at this? Surely, taking out EU passports is admitting (by implication) that not all is well with the decision to leave the EU. Why aren't you angry at a Leave voter for doing this, and thereby undermining the arguments for Leave?

Well, as I think my post implied, I think it's pretty shoddy behaviour. I don't think it undermines the arguments for leave, I think it shows that some people are hypocrites but I knew that anyway. Hypocrisy makes me angry but I can't say I think this is worse than a lot of the hypocrisy that we see around us every day so it's not high up on my list of things to be angry about.

I don't think the arguments for leaving the EU rely on all leave voters being impeccable saints, anymore than do those for staying in rely on all remain voters being without stain.

Interesting what a PP said about going to university making you the "liberal elite" in the eyes of some people. I'm from the city and my family live here too. We are all remainers, all also went to university or had the opportunity to do so and don't view it with suspicion. DHs family however are from a very-white working class commuter town. None went to uni or had the opportunity to do so, so when my husband went he was viewed as somehow becoming other. They're all racist Brexiteers with Daily Mail ideas on foreigners, despite there being about two non-white families in their town. They pour scorn on our life in the "metropolis" and often call us- in jest, kind of- The Liberal Elite.

I'm also interested in the different moral filter we seem to see people's referendum voting through than we do ordinary elections. I think it's pretty much accepted that people vote in GE's etc according to what they percieve to be in their best interests (using their to mean them and family/community). So for example people vote Tory because they don't want to pay higher taxes (as an example) even though this will mean lower benefits for others. And by my recollection, we don't then have a national grinding and gnashing of teeth session berating people for their selfishness. And as I said above, some people vote Labour and then do everything they can to reduce their taxes. Labour mps buy-to-let. So we accept that people will vote and act according to their self interest and that there is a level of hypocrisy.

But when it comes to the referendum, there seems to be, from some, an expectation that people will put aside what they see as their own interests, and selflessly vote for others interests (I'm not talking about parents and children here - for me that is one and the same interest, though obviously it's not in all cases).

It would be voted and nice if everyone acted selflessly all the time, but they don't. I just find it interesting that we accept or don't accept this in different situations.

WrongTrouser, I think it's because the consequences of this vote are so enormous and far-reaching, and there is no hope of overturning the result in another vote later on (as there is with a GE).

I just find it interesting that we accept or don't accept this in different situations.
It seems fairly obvious to me. The outcome of an election can be changed after a few years. The outcome of this referendum can't be. This will affect some people's lives and future prospects forever. For example, as a relatively low earner, my retirement isn't going to be that comfortable. Despite doing my utmost to save, people with little disposable income have limited savings opportunities and are likely to have a poorer retirement and, arguably, a less healthy one. One of the options I was considering was retirement to another EU country where my pension would give me a reasonable - as opposed to poor - standard of living, but, post-Brexit, this opportunity may not be available to me. I'll weather the storm, no doubt, but the fact that leave voters have decided to limit my options by closing that door to me - some of them for the most trivial or ill-thought out reasons - doesn't make me feel overly warm towards them.

I'm also interested in the different moral filter we seem to see people's referendum voting through than we do ordinary elections.

And as for 'moral filters', while we know not all leave voters are racist, I do see the racist (BNP, EDL, Britain First etc) leave voters very much through a moral filter. I don't think I'm unique in this either.

Many (or most, I would have hoped) people vote for what they believe is fair rather than self-interest, don't they? Or at least for what they believe is the right direction? I would be happy to become poorer so that refugees get more aid, but not so happy if it's just so that this island can close its doors.

I agree Fawful. I like to think it's not all about self-interest. For example, I'd gladly pay more tax to fund our NHS, even though I barely use it.

while we know not all leave voters are racist,
A big, big problem with the Leave vote is that Farage has become the most visible spokesman for it, and he is a fascist and has been since his schooldays. Some of the other leading lights of the Leave campaign, Gove, Johnson, Gisela Stuart, need to speak out against him, but they all seem afraid to.

"But I would say that lots of people are quite hypocritical when it comes to politics. I know people who vote Labour and then do every last thing they can to minimise their tax and people who complain about the widening disparity between rich and poor"
Wrongtrouser - I so agree.
There's a hilarious thing in Guido Fawkes today in which he quotes a tweet by Alastair Campbell in which AC sneers at Farage for having an elitist dinner with the Barclay brothers. However, according to Guido....

"Turns out that Campbell was dining at the Michelin starred River Cafe restaurant in Hammersmith, attending an elitist establishment party of his own with fellow Remain campaign losers Peter Mandelson and Sir John Sawyers, the former boss of MI6, BSE chairman and tycoon Sir Stuart Rose as well as billionaire Remain donor Sir Charles Dunstone".
Absolutely classic.

twofingers - If you would like to pay more tax in order to contribute to the NHS, why not work out how much more you'd like to pay and give that sum as a donation to the NHS.

I think it's because the consequences of this vote are so enormous and far-reaching, and there is no hope of overturning the result in another vote later on (as there is with a GE)

I see why this would make people more angry and upset at the referendum result, but I don't see why the enormousness of the effects of Brexit, logically, makes any difference as to whether people can be expected to make a decision based on other people's interests rather than their own. Our whole country is run, and has been so increasingly in the last few decades, massively for the advantage of some, to the detriment of others. This seems to be acceptable/accepted. So we now have a situation where Blair, an ex Labour PM, has a portfolio of property worth £27 million or whatever it is, whilst ordinary couples can both work and still in many cases not afford to buy a house. But that is deemed okay. We just except it's how it is, some do well, some do badly and we each look after ourselves and nearest and dearest as best we can. I hate it, but it's how our society runs.

And it might not be as dramatic as Brexit but the effects are just as large on peoples' lives - can't buy a house, crap wages, keeping working to save for a pension because you've spent so much money paying someone else's mortgage for their pension and on and on. Just as big effects as Brexit just grinding on and on, not sudden.

But then when we have the referendum, people are told (I have seen it on here and elsewhere) "But the effect on me is going to be huge, why didn't you leavers think of the me/my children?"

It would be lovely if we did all think of each and shared our wealth more evenly. That's how I'd like the country to be run, but it's not how we run things and it just seems odd to me that mostly people just get on with their lives not worrying about the effects their choices are having on others and thinking it is perfectly normal for everyone to look out for themselves first, and then suddenly with the referendum, some people are saying people should put other people's interests before theirs.

So we now have a situation where Blair, an ex Labour PM, has a portfolio of property worth £27 million or whatever it is, whilst ordinary couples can both work and still in many cases not afford to buy a house.

And many people are apoplectic with rage at him and Cherie for the self-aggrandising way that they have behaved. He will probably never be forgiven for that and the Iraq war, by a significant number of people.

twofingers - If you would like to pay more tax in order to contribute to the NHS, why not work out how much more you'd like to pay and give that sum as a donation to the NHS.

Dapple - thanks for the snidey retort. How do you know I don't already donate to my local trust?

And as for 'moral filters', while we know not all leave voters are racist, I do see the racist (BNP, EDL, Britain First etc) leave voters very much through a moral filter. I don't think I'm unique in this either

I agree and doubtless many other leave voters too.

why not work out how much more you'd like to pay and give that sum as a donation to the NHS.

I thought that was a snide comment too. I know loads of people who may not be giving to the NHS but are certainly giving time and money to other charitable causes to do with health care, helping the homeless, or other areas where twenty years ago the state would have provided and now doesn't. It's annoying on the one hand, but on the other, our money is going to those who need it and not being wasted on tax cuts for the ultra wealthy, or vanity projects, or financing the latest war that the Americans want us to support.

Just to clarify, I do not believe leave voters voted according to self interest to any greater (or indeed less) extent than remain voters. What I am questioning is the suggestion that a higher level of selflessness should be expected in voting on the EU than in any other election, or indeed daily life. I can't understand why anyone would expect that.

I sympathise with people who will lose options as a result of Brexit but I also sympathise with the costs to people of being in the EU and increasingly unfettered globalisation. I don't expect the second group to put aside their interests and only consider those of the first group. I don't know if I am articulating what I want to say. Will try again later.

mostly people just get on with their lives not worrying about the effects their choices are having on others and thinking it is perfectly normal for everyone to look out for themselves first, and then suddenly with the referendum, some people are saying people should put other people's interests before theirs.

A lot of people try not to live their lives like this. A lot of us make a conscious decision about - for example - where we will shop. We try, as best we can, to be ethical consumers and try to make our everyday decisions matter. But really, so far as wealth inequality goes, we are powerless, and all we can do is vote for the party that seems to pander least to the wealthy/big business. I'm a big fan of Wilkinson & Pickett and think greater equality would benefit all of society. I don't understand, for example, why poorer people vote over and over for a party that is known for its dislike of public services/the welfare state and why there aren't massive protests about wealth inequality. Maybe people are generally passive or just don't think about politics all that much, or relate the decisions they make at the polling both to the policies that are subsequently implemented. After all, we're told many people made a 'protest vote' in the referendum when actually the suffering of many people in this country can be laid firmly at the feet of our own (successive) government/s.

Don't forget the other way we can donate to the NHS... They always need blood.

A lot of people try not to live their lives like this. A lot of us make a conscious decision about - for example - where we will shop. We try, as best we can, to be ethical consumers and try to make our everyday decisions matter.

(And get accused of 'virtue signalling' for our trouble.)

What I am questioning is the suggestion that a higher level of selflessness should be expected in voting on the EU than in any other election, or indeed daily life. I can't understand why anyone would expect that.

I don't think that suggestion is widespread. I've read a lot of threads here(!)and can't say I've picked up on that at all.