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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
RedToothBrush · 13/11/2016 10:40

Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but what do you call a party that isn't the current ruling party if not opposition?

Step 1 in a full coup de tat.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 13/11/2016 10:46

Hadley Freeman ‏@HadleyFreeman

Only now do I realise that Trump's taste in interior decor isn't just bad - it's Dictator Chic

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?
OP posts:
NotDavidTennant · 13/11/2016 10:50

I can't stand Farage, but to be honest, quibbling about whether or not he counts as an "opposition politician" comes across like sour grapes.

And thinking that Trump has done this to make some kind of calculated snub of Theresa May is, I suspect, attributing to him a level of political savvy and understanding that he doesn't actually have.

lalalonglegs · 13/11/2016 10:52

I can't stand Trump but sneering at his soft furnishings is kind of missing the point.

amaravatti · 13/11/2016 10:58

full coup de tat.
Coup d'état, also called Coup, the sudden, violent overthrow of an existing government by a small group. The chief prerequisite for a coup is control of all or part of the armed forces, the police, and other military element
2 down
France, Germany and Austria to go
Spain (till 1978), Portugal (till 1974)and Greece(1974) have lived under fascism in living memory.
Carnations in guns anyone?

GloriaGaynor · 13/11/2016 11:02

I love sneering at soft furnishings and I think everything's game when it comes to Trump.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2016 11:15

Ross Hawkins ‏@rosschawkins
Treasonous, off the rails, pollutant - some of the ways Liam Fox is briefed against this morning as reported by @ShippersUnbound

A senior figure in the government accused Fox of briefing against Britain's diplomats by suggesting Farage was better plugged in than them.

^"Liam Fox has gone off the rails," the source said. "He has exploded himself. He went freelance. He is a self-absorbed pollutant. We don't need Farage."

One minister accused Fox of "treason" and said he had undermined a "brilliant" but low-key operation by Sir Kim Darroch, the British ambassador in Washington, to woo Trump's aides.

"Britain is in pole position to assist Trump," the minister said. "The only person who has jeopardised the fantastic start is Fox, who thinks anything to do with the US is his domain."

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/13/exclusive-nigel-farage-reveals-donald-trumps-team-has-reservatio/
Exclusive: Nigel Farage reveals Nigel Farage's Donald Trump's team has 'reservations' about Theresa May's Government

Mr Farage used his hour-long meeting with Mr Trump to persuade him to return a bust of Sir Winston Churchill to the Oval Office.

The bust was removed by Barack Obama in 2008, prompting a furious reaction from leading British politicians. They includedBoris Johnson, who is now Foreign Secretary.

Mr Farage said that Mr Trump, an Anglophile, was “excited” by the idea and was “very positive” about returning the bust to the Oval Office.

However, he warned that Mrs May will have to “mend some fences” if she is to build a successful relationship with Mr Trump following “rude comments” during the EU referendum

Last year, Mr Trump prompted a backlash from senior British politicians, including Mrs May, after claiming that London had become so radicalised that police were afraid to walk the streets.

Mrs May, the then Home Secretary, said that Mr Trump was “completely wrong” anda third of the current cabinet - nine of the 23 members - publicly attacked Mr Trump.

Luther King you are out. Churchill your back. The reasoning is totally beyond me.

www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/trump-putin-alliance-sparks-diplomatic-crisis/ar-AAke2CD?li=BBrN4i3&ocid=spartandhp
Trump-Putin alliance sparks diplomatic crisis

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/12/sacked-ministers-warn-theresa-may-promote-us-in-a-year-or-there/
Sacked ministers warn Theresa May: Promote us in a year or there will be 'trouble'

So who did she sack? George Osbourne, Michael Gove. Any others?

Senior Tories dismissed by the PrimeMinisterin the summer have privately warned their “loyalty” only stretches so far after being sent to the backbenches.

Some are ready to increasingly rebel over Mrs May’s grammar schools ban and Brexit priorities unless they are put back on the Government payroll soon.

The ultimatum, made in conversations with The Sunday Telegraph, is designed to make sure Mrs May makes good on indications there is a route back to the Government for those who behave.

Wasn't the one told to behave Gove?

“We have said we will be unflinchingly loyal for one year. But if they keep us on the back benches for longer we will start causing trouble,” one formerministersaid.

The warning came as it emerged leading cabinetministerssacked by Mrs May in her brutal “purge” of David Cameron loyalists are planning for the long haul to rebuild their political careers.

George Osborne, the former chancellor, made clear he plans to stay in politics for “many years to come" at a recent constituency event according to one attendee.

So George you will be opposing boundary changes then, seeing as your constituency is on the list to be abolished and if you piss people off in Tory High Command, you might not get on the list for another seat.

Meanwhile Michael Gove, the former justice secretary also sacked in July, has begun re-engaging with British politics after a summer of contemplation and skipping Tory conference in October.

Mr Gove has done a series of high profile interviews making clear he would be willing to serve again on the Government benches if offered a role.

Oh yes how convenient.

Some 29ministersleft the Government after Mrs May took over as PrimeMinister– a far higher number then her working majority in the House of Commons of around a dozen.

But we are only going to mention two in this article cos the other are all totally irrelevant.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/12/will-ministers-old-trump-attacks-undermine-efforts-to-build-new/
Will ministers' old Trump attacks undermine efforts to build new special relationship?

No Mr Farage is doing quite enough in that department.

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RedToothBrush · 13/11/2016 11:17

lalalonglegs
I can't stand Trump but sneering at his soft furnishings is kind of missing the point.

Is it? Trump and Farage claim to be men of the people. They have been photographed at Trump Towers in front of gold doors and lavish furnishings and go on and on about the 'left behind'.

I think pointing out Mr Trump's life style and furnishings is quite relevant to be honest.

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amaravatti · 13/11/2016 11:27

To quote an old adage '(s)he's a b, but (s)he's our bastard***'.
In the absence of any coherent opposition, should we support TM or urge a coalition with the remainer tories, labour and liberals(don't know how, but wishful thinking)?
If she loses Fox, Carney is forced to resign, High Court Ruling goes against her, sticky vote in parliament, a new GE could bring in the final act of 'fascism can be fun' and a UKIP gov.
A GE would be a death wish.
It's politics but not as we've known it Jim.

GloriaGaynor · 13/11/2016 11:28

I thought the dictator-chic was a good point.

Meanwhile, according to the Mail, Boris seems to have won the battle of Chevening: link

lalalonglegs · 13/11/2016 11:30

But HF isn't sneering at him because his interiors are lavish, she's sneering at him because they're the wrong sort of lavish. If he had a ton of original Shaker chairs or a roomful of Rothkos or some amazing Eames proto-types sitting on antique kilims, she wouldn't be tweeting pictures of his apartment. She's tweeting them because she thinks they're vulgar. And let's face it, you'd have to be spectacularly thick not to think that a billionaire property developer might live in some style (whatever you thought of his personal taste) - I don't buy for a minute that the Left Behinders think Trump is left behind, they just think he will do something to help those of them that are.

BoredOfBrexit · 13/11/2016 11:30

I think pointing out Mr Trump's life style and furnishings is quite relevant to be honest.

Well, if that level is of interest then I suppose it's better than 'orange' 'dead hamster hair' 'rubber face', as at least they have choice in taste of furnishings

TheBathroomSink · 13/11/2016 11:31

I think pointing out Mr Trump's life style and furnishings is quite relevant to be honest.

Plus it's Hadley Freeman, who writes a lot of lifestyle stuff, it's just what she does.

SwedishEdith · 13/11/2016 11:32

Who is the guy in the photo on the far left Grin? I know who all the others are, just not him.

BoredOfBrexit · 13/11/2016 11:37

'Sneering at him because they are the wrong type of lavish' kinda follows on from sneering at the wrong kind of vote, does it not. Then offering up what he should have chosen - the right things (eames chairs etc) which would make it acceptable. Hmmm.

BoredOfBrexit · 13/11/2016 11:38

And 'spectacularly thick' Brexit Bingo triple whammy all in one post.

whatwouldrondo · 13/11/2016 11:38

You would have to say that the soft furnishings are all part of the brand, David Cameron certainly thought so, never shy to be photographed raiding his Neff and the Press loved it www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11484075/The-secrets-of-David-Camerons-kitchen-at-No.10-Downing-Street.html

Brand perceptions are a little different in the US than here. Someone I know was in the Trump hotel in Las Vegas this summer and the general response to the bling, from what appeared to be blue collar supporters, was positive admiration. The smell of success?

The understated elegance of the White House is under threat both politically and in terms of the interior decoration......

GloriaGaynor · 13/11/2016 11:43

There are two points, first of all he's supposed to be champion of the forgotten, a counterpoint to Hillary's establishment status. However he couldn't really have been more privileged in his background (inherited money) and less cut off from 'ordinary' American life he purports to represent. His lavish apartments are a testiment to the absurdity of his position.

The second point is that it's a fact almost universally acknowledged that dictators have bad taste.

whatwouldrondo · 13/11/2016 11:45

Bored Making yourself that orange and constructing that hairstyle are not just choices, they also are quite a commitment

GloriaGaynor · 13/11/2016 11:54

Testament not testiment ^

merrymouse · 13/11/2016 11:54

And thinking that Trump has done this to make some kind of calculated snub of Theresa May is, I suspect, attributing to him a level of political savvy and understanding that he doesn't actually have.

Whether deliberate or not, it shows a clear alignment not just with Farage but also Banks et al. Trump can't keep the Breitbart gang close and pretend that all the offensive election rhetoric was just some kind of joke.

jaws5 · 13/11/2016 11:54

I like to think the the armed forces (at least those at the top) are not fanatical enough to support a military coup. Very different circumstances to XX century European coups, where land owners, industrialists, religious leaders and the military conflated -- by the way, Spain's dictatorship finished in name at least in 1975, when Franco died and the Transition period started

jaws5 · 13/11/2016 12:01

By the way, why aren't kippers kicking up a fuss about the undermine to the much trumpeted democracy that is Farage/Trump relationship? The unelected PM has been snubbed in favour of Farage, who doesn't have a parliamentary seat, and kippers are clapping!?

merrymouse · 13/11/2016 12:05

Just been to Remembrance Sunday service with Brownies in a Victorian village church. Good for some historical perspective. It's a relatively new village for the local area, but many of the gravestones pre date California joining the United States.

On the other hand so many names from the same families on the roll of honour.

amaravatti · 13/11/2016 12:05

Hope so Jaws, but the lack of an Orgreave enquiry may be relevant. Red talked about this on previous threads. This has been brewing since the miners' strike, poll tax and the NI war.
So hope I'm wrong. I'd love it.