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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
mathanxiety · 13/11/2016 07:42

Raheem Kassam says Uuuuuuuggggggeeeeee but I say Ugggggggghhhhhhh.

I agree the photos showing Nigel Farage toadying up to Trump while TM is very obviously left cooling her heels waiting for the Presidential phone call despite even Enda Kenny getting one (and an invitation for St Patrick's Day) means TM's personal and political cachet is really, really low.

newsthump.com/2016/11/11/donald-trump-finally-calls-theresa-may-asks-for-estonian-presidents-number/
Smile

Peregrina · 13/11/2016 08:04

Is the lack of Royal Charters for Science, just a sign that Theresa May is very limited in her understanding, and also poorly advised?

mupperoon · 13/11/2016 09:00

To Trump, May is just a woman who runs a rainy island covered in golf courses. I don't understand how the DM and BBC HYS commentards are getting any encouragement from this international humiliation. But then they do seem to think that Farage is our actual leader.

shirleyknotanotherbot · 13/11/2016 09:09

I'm here, contributing nothing as per. Thanks to red et al.

whatwouldrondo · 13/11/2016 09:09

The Royal Charters issue is just one of the problems with the Higher Education and Research bill. There is an issue at the moment with a lot of groundbreaking research being interdisciplinary, indeed multi disciplinary, but the concentration of power and decision making is regarded as worrying. www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2016/oct/18/higher-education-research-bill-needs-amended?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

whatwouldrondo · 13/11/2016 09:11

Those pictures of the deplorables were not a good start to the day.....

Peregrina · 13/11/2016 09:16

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37965089 This is extremely embarassing for Theresa May. To have Farage described as a UK politician when the only political post he holds is to be an MEP, in an institution that he despises, is almost beyond belief.

Peregrina · 13/11/2016 09:20

The BBC's political correspondent in the same piece is quoted as saying:
Theresa May will not be meeting the president-elect until next year - yet a UK opposition politician has already popped in for a chat.

Since when was UKIP the party of opposition? Either sloppy reporting or bias from the BBC.

Waterwitch1 · 13/11/2016 09:28

www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/vote2014/eu-uk-results

TheNorthRemembers · 13/11/2016 09:34

That picture is the embodiment of Marina Hyde's comments in the Guardian about Farage's "little face lighting up" when Trump looks at him. Please, Farage, take a US citizenship. Just show the hypocrite you are.

Anyway, I am starting to feel I have woken up in an alternative universe this morning even compared to yesterday. From the Guardian:
The session will also pit the governor once more against his most personal critic, the anachronistic Tory backbencher Jacob Rees-Mogg, who was bizarrely touted as a potential replacement for Carney. The governor could barely hide his irritation at Rees-Mogg during previous committee sessions, so Tuesday should be fun. www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/13/carney-back-to-face-conservatives-bank-of-england-governor
What? In what universe is nanny's little boy thought of as the future governor of the Bank of England? How did I miss this?

MagikarpetRide · 13/11/2016 09:35

Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but what do you call a party that isn't the current ruling party if not opposition?

Peregrina · 13/11/2016 09:40

Your point being Waterwitch?

How does being the largest party in the EU Parliament (an organisation which they despise, whilst taking handsome salaries from) make UKIP opposition in a UK Parliamentary system, when one of the aims of the Leave Campaign was to bring back Sovereignity and repatriate law making to the UK?

How many times has Farage personally failed to win a Parliamentary seat? 9 times was it?

jaws5 · 13/11/2016 09:43

magik "the" opposition party is Labour, technically speaking, although other parties in a parliament could also be described as opposition parties. UKIP is not even represented in British Parliament, and it think it's abhorrent that it is being treated as if it was a major party.

Peregrina · 13/11/2016 09:43

It's debatable whether Farage can be called a UK opposition politician - loosely yes, but not if you consider our primary legislative body to be the UK parliament. If Carswell had popped in for a chat, I think I would be prepared to go along with it. Not that Carswell would pop in.

Lico · 13/11/2016 09:44

uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN1370OY

cannot believe what Farage said about Theresa May ..so crass

whatwouldrondo · 13/11/2016 09:44

TheNorth Just one of the many lunatic spiffing ideas to come from the Tory right.....

Peregrina · 13/11/2016 09:44

UKIP has one MP jaws, as I have just mentioned. It did have two when a previous Tory changed sides, but he lost his seat.

jaws5 · 13/11/2016 09:49

You're right peregrina

HesterThrale · 13/11/2016 09:59

Douglas Carswell, UKIP's only MP, was a Tory MP for 9 years till 2014, when he switched allegiance to UKIP. I wouldn't be surprised if he went back to the Tories, as they are getting more like the Kippers, and also allegedly he and other UKIP leaders really don't get on.

whatwouldrondo · 13/11/2016 10:11

Douglas Carswell, UKIPs only Member of Parliament, is notable for his absence from this rogues gallery of attention seeking opportunists.

MagikarpetRide · 13/11/2016 10:26

This is one of the many the problem with the leave campaign. Whilst in the GE he was given a platform, he was largely marginalised. Vote Leave, in their desperation, gave him a massive platform he could not have gotten. They allowed a lot of the divisiveness we are still feeling now. It's legitimised him and ukip in a way. He is now transformed from a virtual non entity the leader of a minor but noisy party to a politician (sadly he is one) of an opposition party.

SwedishEdith · 13/11/2016 10:28

Those photos look like they just hung around in the lobby like groupies and waited for Trump to appear to get some fan selfies. I'd be interested in how long the actual meeting took.

Surely it will wind up TM so much that she'll be turned off following Farage's wishes.

HesterThrale · 13/11/2016 10:29

Is TM spitting nails about the snub of Farage and the Kippers' crass meeting in Trump's golden room?

And what do we know about Breitbart? Kassam, Milo Yiannopoulos... and now this:

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/11/11/kassam-just-like-brexits-cry-babies-trump-protesters-will-disappear/amp/?client=safari

SwedishEdith · 13/11/2016 10:33

Agree with that Magik. Leave won because of Farage - the official leave side like to pretend that's not true.

I'm certainly more persuaded about PR now even if it did mean more UKIP MPs. Actually being forced to debate openly in parliament would force greater scrutiny of their policies and expose whether they're workable or not.

SwedishEdith · 13/11/2016 10:40

And meanwhile, Fox is described as a "pollutant, off the rails, and treasonous".

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?
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