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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
weavingawickerbasket · 13/11/2016 12:08

Commenting on his soft furniture is not irrelevant if it signifies what a fat cat Trump is whilst hypocritically proclaiming that he is not part of an elite.

The thread about his wife and calling her derogative names was awful but this is quite different.

The soft furniture post has made me realise even more profoundly that current events and political trends (Brexit, Farage, UKIP, T. May Trump) represent a crusade against the educated 'elite' i.e. people who are in a position to challenge and subvert age old power structures (for example university lecturers, researchers, feminists). Trump & Farage are sexist and bigoted archnationalist. I am worried that with this rise in nationalism in the world conflict is on the horizon. Up to now I would have dismissed such worries as anxiety but I am not so confident any longer that reason will prevail. Sad

merrymouse · 13/11/2016 12:08

If he had a ton of original Shaker chairs or a roomful of Rothkos or some amazing Eames proto-types sitting on antique kilims, she wouldn't be tweeting pictures of his apartment.

Actually, I suspect she would.

Public school momentum supporters also get stick for their lifestyle choices.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2016 12:08

I think its fair comment to say after reading todays headlines that Theresa May has completely lost control of the situation.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/donald-trump-memo-president-britain-planning-to-exploit-is-inexperience-a7414526.html
Leaked memo reveals UK planning to exploit Donald Trump's inexperience
Sir Kim Darroch reported as saying the President-elect's 'tub-thumping' campaign had revealed his true instincts

The memo, seen by The Sunday Times, said: "The president-elect is above all an outsider and unknown quantity, whose campaign pronouncements may reveal his instincts, but will surely evolve and, particularly, be open to outside influence if pitched right.

"Having, we believe, built better relationships with his team than have the rest of Washington diplomatic corps, we should be well placed to do this."

Downing Street said it did not comment on leaked documents

Why leak something like that?

To say that the government is going to undermine Trump and undermine them. Or is it more to undermine Mr Farage's approach?

Either way, May has totally lost control.

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TheBathroomSink · 13/11/2016 12:13

Whether deliberate or not, it shows a clear alignment not just with Farage but also Banks et al.

I wonder if the Republican leaders might have something to do with this - it's no secret they didn't really want Trump as their candidate. Pence, as VP made Johnson his first phone call, so maybe their plan is to let Trump do his photo-ops with people who have very high opinions of themselves but are ultimately of no great consequence, while the real politicians get on with actual stuff?

Or maybe that's just forlorn hope.

weavingawickerbasket · 13/11/2016 12:18

Trump would never go for Eames. Eames represents progressive design and is liberal & egalitarian in its aesthetics . This is why the image of his 'dictator-chic' habitat is just further proof of Trump's ugly arch conservative agenda. They want the world to go back to masters and serfs. I know Erdogan would love Trump's taste in interior bling.

maybe Trump will do away with the White House altogether, and instead commission a whole new presidential blingy palace?

merrymouse · 13/11/2016 12:25

Why leak something like that?

Yes - who and why?

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2016 12:26

David Cameron got a whole lot of abuse for buying Samantha Cameron her car.

Owen Smith got stick for always seeming to appear in a white shirt with sleeves rolled up. (Its regarded as trying to be working class).

Numerous politicians have been given crap for doing the Farage thing of drinking a pint in the local pub.

Where you are photographed, and what you are doing and the message that sends is relevant with the 'elites'. Its about integrity and hypocrisy.

Why is it not relevant with Trump and Farage?

I am starting to wonder if we are getting to the point where criticism of Trump and Farage is going to start becoming taboo and unacceptable.

We are supposed to now, ignore the glaringly obvious now Trump has been elected. Where does that lead?

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NotDavidTennant · 13/11/2016 12:28

I would bet a fiver what really happened was that Farage phoned up Trump's people and asked if he could visit and have a photo OP, and because Farage was one of the only foreign politicians willing to come out and support Trump on the campaign trial they were willing to throw him a bone, and that there was no more significance to that.

Of course Farage is going to spin it that Trump really wanted to meet him for lengthy discussions and that he has the ear of the President, but as I say, a fiver says that that is mostly self-serving bs.

MagikarpetRide · 13/11/2016 12:28

Step 1 in a full coup de tat.
Grin red
Hope that's not true though.

I saw a few tweets with the pic of trump and Farage by the gold doors along the lines of 'thank god we kicked out the elite'

SwedishEdith · 13/11/2016 12:29

I doubt Trump will actually spend much time in the White House - he's a notorious homebird, apparently.

merrymouse · 13/11/2016 12:32

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/13/nigel-farage-donald-trump-crispin-blunt-ukip

Blunt rebuffed any suggestion that the UK was lower down the list of priorities for the Republican when he takes office. “The prime minister has been very reserved and wise in having been guarded in her comments about Donald Trump right from the beginning, unlike many,” he said.

I'm thinking that 'reserved and wise' here means 'not in a strong enough position to feel able to voice an opinion.'

merrymouse · 13/11/2016 12:34

Of course Farage is going to spin it that Trump really wanted to meet him for lengthy discussions and that he has the ear of the President, but as I say, a fiver says that that is mostly self-serving bs.

That makes sense, but only if Trump gets rid of Steve Bannon.

amaravatti · 13/11/2016 12:43

The moderate majority does I believe exist in this country and america. For the moment, it's time to move beyond the partisan. They are achieving what victories they are (despite slim, slim majorities) by divide and rule.

merrymouse · 13/11/2016 12:48

amaravatti

NotDavidTennant · 13/11/2016 12:49

“The prime minister has been very reserved and wise in having been guarded in her comments about Donald Trump right from the beginning, unlike many,”

See my translation of this comment is "Although those MPs who stood up and denounced Trump in parliament look like proper chumps now"

amaravatti · 13/11/2016 12:53

thanks there merry
let's get to work

twofingerstoGideon · 13/11/2016 12:55

I know Erdogan would love Trump's taste in interior bling.

As would Mugabe.

HesterThrale · 13/11/2016 12:58

Notdavidtennant, you may be right about Farage's meeting with Trump. It does look a bit like they're standing in a blingy lift!

whatwouldrondo · 13/11/2016 13:00

Anyone else impressed by Rachel Johnson's wit and insight on The Last Leg?

Just had a splutter on my coffee moment when I read these words in an article on Trump, not Boris, supporters

"I think one thing that should be distinguished here is that the media is always taking Trump literally. It never takes him seriously, but it always takes him literally. ... I think a lot of voters who vote for Trump take Trump seriously but not literally" spoken by Peter Thiel two weeks ago........

www.cnbc.com/2016/11/09/peter-thiel-perfectly-summed-up-donald-trump-in-one-paragraph.html

Follow the paper trail and he lifted it from an article in The Atlantic in September. www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

Hmm

The article I was reading was good though www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/13/donald-trump-president-rust-belt-white-house

merrymouse · 13/11/2016 13:01

I don't think it's ever chumpish to denounce racism, sexism or bigotry of any kind.

Trump, a man who supports the NRA, who talked about what 'second amendment types might do' said

We have places in London and other places that are so radicalised that the police are afraid for their own lives.

If politicians are too frightened to disagree with Trump, what do we stand for?

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2016 13:27

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/president-elect-donald-trump-fraud-trial-postpone-until-after-inauguration-a7414806.html
Donald Trump asks to postpone fraud trial until after his inauguration.

Because he is now too busy.

Yes, because when he becomes president he is going to get less busy...

What do you think the chances of this to get settled out of court or just collapse and the 'pussygate' type allegations to magically just disappear are?

There's also been talk about how Trump's business arrangements present a conflict of interest.

Do we think this will be dealt with properly?

There is a massive problem here. Trump is already in danger of being seen as above the law, untouchable or simply corrupt.

www.france24.com/en/20161113-erdogan-hints-referendum-turkey-joining-eu?ref=tw_i
Erdogan hints at a referendum about joining the EU.

Referendums are a good thing aren't they?

Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon
Lord Ashcroft is a billionaire Tory peer and former non-dom. He disparages the "elite". And he gets away with it because he isn't liberal

Why some elites are considered ok and you can turn a blind eye to their status, and some are not.

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StripeyMonkey1 · 13/11/2016 14:58

Why some elites are considered ok and you can turn a blind eye to their status, and some are not.

I think that is the point. It appears that people don't mind elites but they do not like having liberal values 'imposed' on them.

I used to watch The Apprentice USA which of course was Trump's earlier big publicity vehicle. I was particularly struck at the difference between his approach and that of Sir Alan Sugar in the UK version. Sir Alan seems to be biased towards those with working class roots, who are looking to make something of themselves.

Trump in the US has absolutely the opposite bias. In one episode he is scathing of a woman who attempts to portray her self-made businesswoman status as being better than that of a lawyer who has been through college. He was pretty clear that he saw better schooling as the bigger advantage and better choice.

Trump might be in favour of jobs for everyone, but he is no egalitarian.

GloriaGaynor · 13/11/2016 15:21

Trump might be in favour of jobs for everyone

Who isn't?

whatwouldrondo · 13/11/2016 15:31

I only ever watched one American Apprentice though I am an avid fan of the pantomime UK Apprentice. The leering at and patronising of women was just repulsive, I couldn't stomach any more.

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