Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
howabout · 19/11/2016 14:38

ron I don't think it was self interest for an older person to vote Leave. They need young imported workers to run their affairs in their retirement if they are not going to support and promote the younger generation.

Perhaps coincidentally I do not know any Leave voters over 60.

whatwouldrondo · 19/11/2016 14:46

howabout I do, quite a few, and who will be wiping their bum in the care home is not something they thought about when they voted leave. In fact I was talking to someone who had pursuaded their mother to vote remain after pointing out that commenting on voting leave and her nice Lithuanian doctor in the same breath was not actually a non sequitur. That one was potentially related to the other. However she kept her vote secret because it was too difficult a debate to have with her peers.......

Peregrina · 19/11/2016 15:00

If you are sixty or sixty five you are not thinking at all about who will be wiping your bum in a care home. You (we) still think you are 35 inside so that is a long way in the future. (You get a shock looking in the mirror when your Mum or Dad looks back at you.)

I think, and have said it before on these threads, that most of us voted the way we did because we thought we and the country would be better off. Was it Carney who said that no one voted to be worse off? The only exceptions would be the out and out racists, who would rather cut their nose off to spite their face rather than have dealings with a black person or a Muslim. And the Tory headbangers, e.g. Redwood, who is wealthy and will be able to pay for care anyway.

TheBathroomSink · 19/11/2016 15:11

merry - Trump is apparently in favour of safe spaces:

Donald J. TrumpVerified account
‏@realDonaldTrump
The Theater must always be a safe and special place.The cast of Hamilton was very rude last night to a very good man, Mike Pence. Apologize!

(Presumably only the ones that mean people can't be mean to him or people like him though)

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 15:20

Oh, I'd missed that tweet!

I thought the cast were very, very polite, although the audience were possibly a bit rude.

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 15:25

(Also, that tweet shows how much Donald Trump knows about the theatre - it isn't supposed to be a 'safe' place, unless perhaps you are going to watch the CBeebies Christmas Special.)

TheBathroomSink · 19/11/2016 16:02

I suspect he would find the Cbeebies panto a bit challenging, intellectually!

whatwouldrondo · 19/11/2016 16:12

Hamilton is coming here in 2017, I am in the line to be in the line for tickets. I wonder if they will charge a premium for nights when prominent right wingers are in the house?

whatwouldrondo · 19/11/2016 16:22

What a shocking thing for poor Pence to have to listen too Hmm

We have a message for you, sir. We hope that you will hear us out.

Vice President-elect Pence, we welcome you, and we truly thank you for joining us here at “Hamilton American Musical,” we really do.

We, sir, we are the diverse America, who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights.

But we truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us. All of us.

Again, we truly thank you for [inaudible] this wonderful American story told by a diverse group of men, women, of different colors, creeds and orientations."

amaravatti · 19/11/2016 16:22

for men's day[grin}
manwhohasitall ‏@manwhohasitall Nov 17
Men: the SILENT sex. How can we give men the confidence they need to PIPE UP in the corridors of power?

amaravatti · 19/11/2016 16:23

can't get the hand of these wee picture things
Grin

prettybird · 19/11/2016 16:33

Just had a look at @manwhohasitall Twitter feed.

Wonderful satire! Grin

TheBathroomSink · 19/11/2016 16:42

He's still banging on about it:

Donald J. TrumpVerified account
‏@realDonaldTrump
Our wonderful future V.P. Mike Pence was harassed last night at the theater by the cast of Hamilton, cameras blazing.This should not happen!

In an alternate reality where there are adults in charge, there would be people wrestling his phone away from him and changing the password.

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 16:52

He wasn't harassed by the cast - he was harassed by the audience who presumably were people who just happened to have tickets that night - isn't it a sell out show?

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 16:54

Is Donald Trump stupid or just trying to reframe the event?

Also, I would have thought this is going to happen over and over again.

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 17:09

Meanwhile on DT Twitter...

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?
TheBathroomSink · 19/11/2016 17:12

Yes, it's a sellout, and I have seen it stated that Pence's tickets were comped, I don't know if that is correct or not.

Trump's point seems to be that the speech by the cast constitutes harassment, which would seem to me to be both trying to reframe the event, and also a massive misunderstanding of what harassment actually is, probably because he's never experienced it.

Lots of people replying to his tweets utterly agreeing with him, which would support the 'reframing' argument, whilst lots of others are pointing out that politicians of all sides have to cope with protests and demonstrations all the time, it kind of comes with the job description!

TheBathroomSink · 19/11/2016 17:16

Seriously? How have they not smashed his phone yet? At some point someone has to realise what a liability his access to public communication is, don't they?

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 18:36

mobile.twitter.com/jntod/status/800025155133198336

Thesp humour. Grin

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?
amaravatti · 19/11/2016 19:15

Like it merry mouse!

Kaija · 19/11/2016 21:26

Lest we forget...

Article here rightly points out the Hamilton tweet was obviously put out to distract from the fact that Trump has just had to pay a $25 million settlement to avoid being convicted of fraud.

It's got Steve Bannon's ugly fingerprints all over it I'd say.

reaction.life/trump-media-genius-winding-liberal-left/

amaravatti · 19/11/2016 21:51

Meanwhile, the liberal left needs surely to realise that the obsession with snowflake identity politics is an electoral and cultural dead end
Thanks Kaija, thought provoking.

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 22:04

liberal left needs surely to realise that the obsession with snowflake identity politics is an electoral and cultural dead end

I think it's easy to dismiss 'identity politics' when you aren't part of a threatened group. Yes some people talk about the need for safe spaces at universities and are special snow flakes. However it seems to be generally accepted that voter suppression exists. There is clear evidence that black people are not treated equally by the police in America. Gay people have reason to believe that Mike Pence is a threat to their rights.

It's possible to read about Hamilton and Trump University.

prettybird · 19/11/2016 22:07

It's possible to read about Hamilton and Trump University.

Dare I say, if you are sufficiently intelligent? Wink

Swipe left for the next trending thread