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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
merrymouse · 19/11/2016 22:09

From that article

Trump is, it should be apparent by now, a new media genius, skilled at driving his opponents mad

I'd say Trump's main skill is never underestimating the gullibility of his potential market. It's not so much his opponents as his supporters that he is playing.

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 22:17

Atleast people are able to boycott things on equal terms though.

I'm not buying a $10,000 Ivanka Trump bracelet and people tweeting #boycotthamilton aren't buying tickets for a sold out show.

RedToothBrush · 19/11/2016 22:23

Matthew Holehouse ‏@mattholehouse
UK govt submits to the Supreme Court that they can hit Article 50 without Parliament because it was on the leaflet

Are the government SERIOUSLY going to stand up in court and argue that because something was on a leaflet it was legally (or even politically) binding?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38034411
Drop Brexit case appeal, senior Tories urge May

Former minister Sir Oliver, who oversaw a "Brexit Unit" in the Cabinet Office after the referendum, told BBC Radio 4's Today Programme that the Supreme Court hearing could see ministers' powers outside Parliament curbed.

He added that one of the advantages of bringing a "fast and tightly timetabled and constrained bill" to Parliament, giving the government the ability to trigger Brexit without any constraints on its negotiating power, was that it avoided "any risk of the Supreme Court deciding to accord the devolved administrations some rights or even some veto powers" over triggering Article 50.

and

Sir Edward [Garnier] said: "That way you avoid an unnecessary legal row, you avoid a lot of unnecessary expense, but you also avoid an opportunity for ill-motivated people to attack the judiciary, to misconstrue the motives of both parties to the lawsuit, and you provide certainty."

Mr [Dominic] Grieve said: "I can't see the point in the government continuing with the case and also agree that if they enact primary legislation, they will get it through Parliament.

"I think their chances of success in court are low."

and

Conservative MP Owen Paterson, who was a Leave campaigner, said he believed the government had a "very strong case" for its appeal.

Yes, if you are making the argument that it was written on a leaflet I'm convinced. I'm sure the Supreme Court will be convinced. This is despite the fact that unlike normal advertising, the legislation on election leafleting is that you can mislead or make claims that are not necessarily true.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/19/heavyweight-brexiteers-go-public-as-60-tory-mps-demand-clean-bre/
Heavyweight Brexiteers among 60 Tory MPs to demand clean break from the EU

Sixty Tory MPs including seven ex-Cabinet ministers have demanded Theresa May pulls Britain out of the single market and customs union amid fears her Brexit stance could be watered down.

At first glance it looks like there is new pressure on May to leave the Single Market. Then you look at the names and its just a who's who of the Tory Nutters. It almost sounds desperate. You also wonder if there are any more who feel like this in the whole HoC. 60 sounds a lot. 60 v 585, not so much.

Front Page of tomorrow's Sunday Times screams:
Queen will invite Trump to Windsor
She is our secret weapon, say ministers

You know like how, Kate is our secret weapon in making trade deals.

F. U. K. D.

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?
OP posts:
NotDavidTennant · 19/11/2016 22:31

There's a certain irony to the fact that the EU referendum that was intended to end Tory splits over Europe seems to be leading to the worst Tory split over Europe since the Maastricht Treaty.

TheBathroomSink · 19/11/2016 22:32

I think the attempt to avoid the Supreme Court is an attempt to cut the devolved governments out of the process, in case it turns out they do have the power to veto something. It's the rabid desperation of the hardcore, ideological Brexiteers to circumvent anyone who might be able to limit their influence.

Although I have also had quite a bit of that Italian prosecco, so I might not be making much sense!!

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 22:36

Queen will invite Trump to Windsor
She is our secret weapon, say ministers

Well, she is the star of 'The Crown'. These days that probably counts for alot.

mathanxiety · 19/11/2016 22:39

'The theatre must always be a safe and special place'

Ask Abraham Lincoln about that...

But seriously, there is still such a thing as free speech.
And if you dish it then you must expect to take it. Pence was in New York, not Indianapolis.

RedToothBrush · 19/11/2016 22:43

www.ft.com/content/509006b8-acb7-11e6-ba7d-76378e4fef24
Brexit’s roots run deeper than immigration
Anti-metric campaigners hope UK imperial road signs are now safe

This is my story of the day.

Derek Norman may be 82 and suffer from tremors, but he still likes to indulge one of his great passions: removing public signs with EU-mandated metric measures and replacing them with the imperial ones that have governed Britain’s roads for more than a century.

Just a few months ago, the long-time member of the UK Independence party and Brexit campaigner rose from his recliner to swap a sign in Bassingbourn, more than 20 miles from his home in Huntingdon, cleansing what he regards as an EU intrusion into the native terrain.

“I didn’t want to see normal, everyday life in metric,” Mr Norman shrugged, as his wife and accomplice, Kay, served tea and carrot cake. All told, he estimated that the Active Resistance to Metrication movement they founded in his living room in 2001 has swapped more than 1,800 signs across the country.

Most of us youngsters don't really have much of a problem is metric. What with imperial measurements not being taught in schools, for oh the last 40 years.

I despair. Seriously. How have I coped with only really doing metric for my entire life.

Is it a criminal activity to nick or vandalise signs?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 19/11/2016 22:47

Trump defends rabidly anti-Gay politician when he goes to the 'Home of the Gays' - a theatre in New York - and wonders why he gets abuse, when he's spent months abusing people.

Nothing to do with Trump settling his court case and wanting to consign it to page 6 of the NYT. At all.

(Burying the bad news).

OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 19/11/2016 22:48

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

TheBathroomSink · 19/11/2016 22:52

I have the metric argument (not the mention the decimalisation one) with my mother on a fairly regular basis. She cannot (mostly won't) comprehend that we were taught metric in school, not to mention that fact that pounds/shillings/pence was history before I was even born so it means nothing to me. Yes, I still measure height in feet and inches, and I can bake a cake in ounces if I need to, but I can also equate that height to centimetres and I can quite easily buy the ingredients for making a cake in grams and kilograms!

mathanxiety · 19/11/2016 22:53

It really does look as if the Tories are lining up for a knock down drag out fight. If the party had any leadership at all, this would not happen.

BoredofBrexit Sat 19-Nov-16 12:40:27
Hmm. Germaine Greer that now cannot speak at Universities.
Germaine Greer has been de-platformed thanks to the Transactivist lobby, who are fascists.

TheBathroomSink · 19/11/2016 22:53

Mother I emailed my MP just after the Brexit vote, he hasn't bothered to reply yet, and still somehow we are supposed to feel sad that his seat might be scrapped in the boundary review!!

tiggytape · 19/11/2016 22:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 23:14

Exactly right Tiggytape.

lalalonglegs · 19/11/2016 23:23

I'm amazed that the polls don't seem to be moving very fast in Sturgeon's direction but they aren't so her dreams of winning another referendum seem unachievable - for the time-being. And isn't there also something of a question mark over whether an independent Scotland would automatically gain EU membership?

In the medium term, it would be better to get the Scottish government some real clout and screw over Westminster - and they'd be completely justified given the derisive way in which May has treated the devolved governments in the past few months.

tiggytape · 19/11/2016 23:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 23:35

Tiggy And that is assuming that the EU continues in its current form and is not weakened by the rising tide of populism, and the likely changes in foreign policy in the US. It must be in people's minds inScotland what their position would be following an acrimonious split between Scotland and rUK if the EU falls.

Peregrina · 19/11/2016 23:50

There's a certain irony to the fact that the EU referendum that was intended to end Tory splits over Europe seems to be leading to the worst Tory split over Europe since the Maastricht Treaty.

Bring it on, I say. The sooner they split the better. Let the nasty right wing rename themselves officially as BlueKip, and let moderates of both the Tory and Labour parties join in a newly revamped Centre party with the LibDems. Let's see proper electoral reform too, while we are about it.

Peregrina · 20/11/2016 00:00

Are the government SERIOUSLY going to stand up in court and argue that because something was on a leaflet it was legally (or even politically) binding?

Trouble is it's back to the question, what did we decide? May's take on it is that curbing Freedom of Movement is the be all and end all of it. I have just told my MP rather tartly that the question of do we want to curb immigration wasn't on my ballot paper, hers, Mrs May's, nor anyone elses.

Forget the NHS, for a starter, which many do want to preserve.

tiggytape · 20/11/2016 00:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

amaravatti · 20/11/2016 00:38

merrymouse it's possible to read about Hamilton and Trump University
I think it's easy to dismiss 'identity politics' when you aren't part of a threatened group

Sure, but it has to be unite and fight. It's the only way workplace laws, race, gender and sexuality rights have been gained before, rather than this culture of personal pain( which by no means am I reducing the Trump team's abhorrent racism and sexism to) that seems to have gain precedence and that can be manipulated with such effect. Mawkishness has this weird currency now and it is used constantly as a weapon back against those who seek to pursue human rights, and within groups which should be united.

Plus we need to be cannier about countering the Bannon types: Rahm Emmanuel and Alistair Campbell as part of an interim team? Bottom line is Democrats/Labour haven't got a credible political army atm, and that's what's needed across Europe and US right now. We're stuck in the headlights right now, but need to get thinking quick.

In the Barcelona commune during the civil war, there weren't arguments between men in dresses and feminists. Fighting fascism seemed reasonably clear.

To bang on about gender again: Bannon is gas lighting, and it's working a treat.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/11/age-pain

Peregrina · 20/11/2016 00:39

I don't think we can carry on as though nothing has happened. I do think that a lot of people were not so much fed up with the EU as fed up with austerity. A programmed to address this and try to bring better quality and more stable work to the regions would IMO keep a lot of people happy.

The issue won't go away in the same way that Scottish Independence hasn't gone away. I can remember the time when the SNP was a very minor interest with Winnie Ewing in charge of the party. Maggie Thatcher came along and introduced the Poll Tax first in Scotland, and that, I believe is when the seeds for Independence were really sown.

I fail to see why the country has to be dictated to by the UKIP agenda.

mathanxiety · 20/11/2016 06:42

Peregrina, I wonder could the chasm become so unbridgeable that there would actually be a realignment of parties like that? If so, then it might be one lone positive result from the catastrophe, apart from the Kip element. You would have to hope that eventually that blind alley would be exposed for what it is.

Tiggytape yes, I believe that if Sturgeon used the 'stop button' there are Brexiters who would actually show Scotland the door and express the hope that it wouldn't hit her too hard on the way out of the Union. Ditto Northern Ireland. I am not so sure Sturgeon or Scotland or any Remainers in NI want to be cast as the whipping boys for the Kippers and the very disappointed Brexiters who are pressing for the quickest exit possible and screw the terms if it turned out that any existing stop button was pressed. I do not think those people would forgive easily.

Though it has to be asked, what does Sturgeon want more? EU membership within the UK that she prevents from committing a monumental act of stupidity, or independence? Is she willing to see Scotland suffer a bit from Brexit in order to strengthen the case for another IndyRef or a UDI? Would she and the SNP suffer a backlash if Scotland suffered a lot? How much hardship and recession is NI willing to suffer before everyone turns on the DUP?

mathanxiety · 20/11/2016 07:01

Two recent articles on identity politics and liberalism in the US:
(apologies if already posted)

www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/opinion/sunday/the-crisis-for-liberalism.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-1&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article
'The Crisis for Liberalism'
"So now identitarian liberalism is taking fire from two directions. From the center-left, it’s critiqued as an illiberal and balkanizing force, which drives whit-cis-het people of good will rightward and prevents liberalism from speaking a language of the common good. From the left, it’s critiqued as an expression of class privilege, which cares little for economic justice so long as black lesbian Sufis are represented in the latest Netflix superhero show.

"Both of these critiques make reasonable points. But I’m not sure they fully grasp the pull of an identitarian politics, the energy that has elevated it above class-based and procedural visions of liberalism.

It’s true that identity politics is often illiberal, both in its emphasis on group experience over individualism and, in the web of moral absolutes — taboo words, sacred speakers, forbidden arguments — that it seeks to weave around left-liberal discourse. It’s also true that it privileges the metaphysical over the material, recognition over redistribution."

www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/opinion/sunday/the-end-of-identity-liberalism.html?action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&module=Trending&version=Full&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

"the fixation on diversity in our schools and in the press has produced a generation of liberals and progressives narcissistically unaware of conditions outside their self-defined groups, and indifferent to the task of reaching out to Americans in every walk of life. At a very young age our children are being encouraged to talk about their individual identities, even before they have them. By the time they reach college many assume that diversity discourse exhausts political discourse, and have shockingly little to say about such perennial questions as class, war, the economy and the common good...

"...When young people arrive at college they are encouraged to keep this focus on themselves by student groups, faculty members and also administrators whose full-time job is to deal with — and heighten the significance of — “diversity issues.” Fox News and other conservative media outlets make great sport of mocking the “campus craziness” that surrounds such issues, and more often than not they are right to. Which only plays into the hands of populist demagogues who want to delegitimize learning in the eyes of those who have never set foot on a campus. How to explain to the average voter the supposed moral urgency of giving college students the right to choose the designated gender pronouns to be used when addressing them? How not to laugh along with those voters at the story of a University of Michigan prankster who wrote in “His Majesty”?

This campus-diversity consciousness has over the years filtered into the liberal media, and not subtly. Affirmative action for women and minorities at America’s newspapers and broadcasters has been an extraordinary social achievement — and has even changed, quite literally, the face of right-wing media, as journalists like Megyn Kelly and Laura Ingraham have gained prominence. But it also appears to have encouraged the assumption, especially among younger journalists and editors, that simply by focusing on identity they have done their jobs."

I think this article nails it.

This paragraph is out of its order, but here goes -
"One of the many lessons of the recent presidential election campaign and its repugnant outcome is that the age of identity liberalism must be brought to an end. Hillary Clinton was at her best and most uplifting when she spoke about American interests in world affairs and how they relate to our understanding of democracy. But when it came to life at home, she tended on the campaign trail to lose that large vision and slip into the rhetoric of diversity, calling out explicitly to African-American, Latino, L.G.B.T. and women voters at every stop. This was a strategic mistake. If you are going to mention groups in America, you had better mention all of them. If you don’t, those left out will notice and feel excluded"

Wrt men in frocks, I personally would rather chew off my right arm than vote Republican, but the US Department of Justice under president Obama, for reasons I cannot wrap my head around, threw girls and women under the bus, or rather the juggernaut of the Trans movement. The result is that I have a daughter aged 15 who might by the end of her high school days be required by her public school administrators to undress and shower in front of teenage boys whose only claim to belonging in the girls' locker room is that they feel they are girls. If it comes to a choice between my daughter's right to choose the time and the circumstances under which she will expose her body to a male, and an appeal to my liberal or progressive principles, I am choosing my daughter's interests every single time.

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