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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
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merrymouse · 19/11/2016 13:44

It is only recent years that has given rise to this in between generation, that has fashion, media, literature, music all devoted to it. It's a bit of a holding pen.

It has always been possible to be a young adult.

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 13:50

Yes it has Merry, and to be treated as such.

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 13:52

It is part of the PC of the left

Loads and loads of articles from Nick Cohen et al about the silliness of 'safe spaces'. Corbyn and McDonnell only ever seemed to be nominal remainers. Please do not blame remainers, (who include Michael Heseltine) for 'PC gone mad'. That would imply a level of coherence that neither side ever had.

whatwouldrondo · 19/11/2016 13:53

Bored I can only speak for myself who had the benefit of a free university education, and a grant, a workplace that was becoming fairer both in terms of female equality and social mobility, was able to get on the housing ladder at the age of 24 on the back of an entry level graduate job and indeed a brother who left school at 16 with no qualifications but was able via an apprenticeship and vocational education to arrive at the same place by a different route and my politically active peers who rose through party hierarchies, both Tory, Libdem and Labour to positions of power both inside parliament and in the commentariat, one was in the Cabinet at the age of 40, the other a political editor of one of the major media outlets at 40 too. No, I don't think the current situation of the younger generation, either politically or economically was ever thus, in a world of expanding opportunity I never felt that nobody was speaking for me. They enjoy none of these advantages and the one advantage they did enjoy and value, the chance to live and work in 27 countries may now be lost too. Who is speaking up for their situation, certainly not a government speaking up for the concerns of the over 50s........

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 13:54

Yes it has Merry, and to be treated as such.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Adults are adults. Younger adults have different views to older adults but make up proportionately less of the population than previously.

Peregrina · 19/11/2016 13:54

the hardline Eurosceptics............Most of them extremely wealthy, they don't give two hoots about the much trumpeted "ordinary people" at all, never have, never will...

No, and when the sh*t hits the fan and they realise, it will be far, far too late. At least with Maggie Thatcher people in the North knew she was bad news from the off. (Not that it did them any good, and in the end it was the Tory Party machine which finished her off.)

SwedishEdith · 19/11/2016 13:55

"It is only recent years that has given rise to this in between generation"

What do you consider to be "recent years"?

HyacinthFuckit · 19/11/2016 13:56

I'm not surprised there are Tory Brexiters telling May to hurry up and scrap the appeal. Realistically, it only drags things out. If you genuinely want to go, best to put it to Parliament as soon as possible.

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 13:57

Edith. Post WW2 maybe?

Peregrina · 19/11/2016 13:59

I think the time ron is talking about will be seen as a blip of the post war years. We now seem to be heading back rapidly to the pre-war years with a wealthy upper class and a large poor class - I hesitate now to call them working class because the traditional industries have gone.

whatwouldrondo · 19/11/2016 14:03

Bored I am not sure what you are alluding to in terms of an "in between generation", I am talking about a generational divide that in terms of the Brexit vote fell in the mid 40s. The opportunities for the current generation of twenty and thirty somethings have been closed down compared to previous generations.

whatwouldrondo · 19/11/2016 14:05

Peregrina this

whatwouldrondo · 19/11/2016 14:06

this

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 14:09

Maybe what I am trying to say is that until recently, the freedoms of adulthood were inversely weighted by the responsibilities. In today's world there is a bit of a lag before having to assume responsibility catches up and it's in that inbetween place that - for some - it's considered fine to protest yet also considered fine not to vote. And surely after the wars we had population imbalance due to the huge loss of young life, yet it was from there that today's world evolved?

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 14:10

Ron. But some might posit that the opportunities will be opened up.

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 14:11

Anyway, in the context of Milo thingy, Germaine Greer and safe spaces are relevant. He certainly seems to hate women, but it's not clear if that is representative of all women or because he is psychologically damaged. One of his weird defences was that people who want safe spaces on campuses want to deny freedom of speech and don't like to hear the truth. However, Breitbart also seems to dislike the truth and Trump doesn't seem keen on freedom of speech.

On the other hand, as I said before, remain and leave each seemed to include people from all parts of the political spectrum.

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 14:13

And surely after the wars we had population imbalance due to the huge loss of young life, yet it was from there that today's world evolved?

This is the first time that we have had a significant retired population. Again, I suspect that will also be seen as s blip.

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 14:18

Merry, if they raise retirement age to 80 that will reframe it Smile

tiggytape · 19/11/2016 14:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

whatwouldrondo · 19/11/2016 14:28

Bored Not many under 40s think Brexit is an opportunity, and they are the ones who are going to have to cope with this shitstorm in their working lives, that is exactly my point.

An entitled older generation, many of whom are sitting on wealth, in terms of comfortable homes in the South East (again the main demographic of the leave vote), who voted out of self interest, whether it be abstract notions of sovereignty, control or actual prejudices in terms of immigration, or elites, who betrayed their aspirations for Britains economic and political role in the world.

whatwouldrondo · 19/11/2016 14:31

This was the trend even before the financial crisis and Brexit

Peregrina · 19/11/2016 14:32

It's interesting to consider the longevity of the current population. Those 90 year old upwards must have grown up in a time of relative poverty. Maybe it was a question of the survival of the fittest during childhood, and then post war prosperity gave their health a boost during early middle age?

Will the baby-boomers, of which I am one, last as long? I suspect not, I have already seen friends die prematurely, mostly of cancer. Added to this, the problems of antibiotic resistance.

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 14:32

He certainly seems to hate women, but it's not clear if that is representative of all women or because he is psychologically damaged

Representative of all men - how much is Milo a spokesperson and how much is he the male right wing version of Liz Jones.

whatwouldrondo · 19/11/2016 14:37

Peregrina I think the assumption amongst the scientific community is that it will be a mutated virus that will be the most likely source of demographic disaster, but then that was before Brexit and Trump, I think the potential it will be war must now be becoming more likely.

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