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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
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amaravatti · 19/11/2016 10:48

No one wants the left to behave like the right – but it’s time we fought just as hard.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/19/brexit-trump-left-crucial-flaw-leavers-alt-right-ruthlessness

I notice Hilary refrained from quoting the 'Does it hurt?' incident , in her campaign, despite the bestial nature of the attacks on her.

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/24/documenting-trumps-abuse-of-women

A famous writer said 'women have know idea how much men hate them.'
This new president, cosying up to Erdogan who is introducing a new law to make rape survivors marry their attackers:
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mps-turkey-support-bill-allowing-child-rapists-go-free-marry-victim-akp-erdogan-a7425326.html; and we have our very own 'funny' sexism of UKIP. There's a trial going on. The fact that many of the zero hours workers here are women and mothers, trapping them in financial reliance on men on men's wages (see so many of the postings here under relationships and AIBU). Over the Atlantic a repeal of Roe v Wade and access to contraceptives is imminent.

It's an old extremist technique, this sort of stuff. Great book about it is Paul Ginsburg: Family Politics Domestic Life, Devastation and Survival 1900-1950) (Yale press). It works brilliantly because you can disarm a demographic across the races, 'countries' and parties, divide and rule us in our relationships, allegedly.

I think we're getting an idea.

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 11:21

I'm interested to see how Trump manages his business interests.

Giuliani said that Trump's children would be out of work if they couldn't work for Trump.

However,

  1. the children sound a bit rubbish, if despite all their advantages they can't survive outside the family business
  2. It makes his businesses sound rather fragile if they can't survive without a member of the Trump family behind the scenes - what is keeping them going?
  3. Surely, with so much money they don't have to work.
  4. As president he will be asking people to die for him - armed forces, security - what is he prepared to sacrifice?
  5. Didn't Clinton get into trouble because of conflicts of interest?
amaravatti · 19/11/2016 11:35

Merrymouse
Word was, he was using the campaign to publicise his flagging businesses.
Hence shocked face when he won.
He used last week of campaign to publicise opening a new hotel.

Unless you're a billionaire how can you run for US election? It's what it is.
It's why the Michael Crick campaign on Channel 4 news into Tory election spending is so imperative to prevent same happening here, so richest wins.
Or having oligarch mates helps Wink Michael Gove, Pearson publishing, Murdoch press, new GCSEs, new online resources and texts needed; kerching.

BestIsWest · 19/11/2016 11:53

Amarvatti, I am Shock at your last line. I wasn't aware of that at all.

BestIsWest · 19/11/2016 11:53

Amaravatti sorry.

jaws5 · 19/11/2016 12:34

A famous writer said 'women have no idea how much men hate them that's Germaine Greer in The Female Eunuch, as relevant today as when it was published. Trump is the prime example...

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 12:40

Hmm. Germaine Greer that now cannot speak at Universities.

TheBathroomSink · 19/11/2016 12:41

Oh joy

Sixty Tory MPs including seven ex-cabinet ministers have demanded Theresa May pulls Britain out of the single market and customs union amid fears her Brexit stance could be watered down.

Michael Gove, Iain Duncan Smith, John Whittingdale and Theresa Villiers are among leading Eurosceptics to put their names to the negotiation demand.

The politicians have gone public through The Sunday Telegraph amid concerns that pro-EU figures in the Cabinet are fighting to soften the Government’s Brexit position.

Eurosceptics said only the cleanest Brexit can fulfil the country’s referendum call to “untie ourselves from EU shackles and freely embrace the rest of the world”.

However critics warned leaving the single market and customs union would establish barriers to trade that were not voted for in the referendum.

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 12:46

Ahem. Was the vote not simply to stay in or leave the EU?

lalalonglegs · 19/11/2016 12:56

Quite. From Jonathan Freedland's excellent column today:

"As a few, admirable voices have been noting, during the campaign the loudest Brexiteers were at pains to stress that leaving the EU did not mean leaving the single market. “Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market,” said Daniel Hannan. “Only a madman would actually leave the market,” said Owen Patterson. In the spring, Farage constantly urged us to be like Norway – which in fact pays through the nose and accepts free movement of people in order to remain in the single market. Yet now we are told that the vote to leave the EU was a clear mandate to leave the single market, and we’ve got to get on with it."

whatwouldrondo · 19/11/2016 13:03

Bored even great feminist writers are not immune from the swing to the right as you age, she is part of the leave voter age demographic. The reason they attempted to ban her from U.K. Universities, she still actually gave her talk, was because of her manifest attitude to a minority, in this case the transgender minority.

I have seen her speak, at my daughters' school and predictably 50% of it was unashamed nostalgia. The younger generation did find her inspiring though, not least because she said that she could not be the voice of feminism for their generation, she was old and detached from their reality. They had to have their own ideas and bring their own consciousness to their activism.

I think the same applies in relation to politics generally except that young people are basically being ignored in terms of their attitude to the EU and politics. They may have been mobilised to some extent by Corbyn but only because there was nobody else, and his EU stance lost him a lot of them.

jaws5 · 19/11/2016 13:04

(Hmm. Germaine Greer that now cannot speak at Universities* that's a totally irrelevant point here. We could discuss that topic somewhere else -- I have been following that for a while.

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 13:07

Jaws you are at it again, dictating what is relevant for discussion and what is not.

Peregrina · 19/11/2016 13:08

The Tory party manifesto had a commitment to the Single Market. Didn't Gove, IDS ( a total failure as party leader), Whittingdale and Villiers sign up to that then?

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 13:11

Ron, my thoughts are aligned with you in your first two paras. The youth of today though are no more lauded or ignored than they have ever been.

Peregrina · 19/11/2016 13:13

Sixty Tory MPs including seven ex-cabinet ministers have demanded Theresa May pulls Britain out of the single market and customs union amid fears her Brexit stance could be watered down.

I.e. the hardline Eurosceptics that Cameron was trying to appease, and landed us all in this almighty f*ck up. May will probably go along with it being a secret Leaver all along.

jaws5 · 19/11/2016 13:16

Ok, bored, how is G Greer being banned from some universities by student unions because of comments that some consider transphobic relevant here?

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 13:19

Ron, my thoughts are aligned with you in your first two paras. The youth of today though are no more lauded or ignored than they have ever been.

The difference is that compared to previous generations they are demographically less significant.

jaws5 · 19/11/2016 13:23

whatwould I do agree that from the pov of a generational divide that we have seen manifest in the Brexit vote, the G Greer issue can be illustrative of something else.

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 13:26

well why not? You yourself said she was relevant today yet some efforts are being made to silence her views because they disagree with them. It is part of the PC of the left. It is why all the polls are wrong. But my objection is to you, in that you feel entitled to police content in a public forum and play the victim if you are challenged.

jaws5 · 19/11/2016 13:29

.e. the hardline Eurosceptics that Cameron was trying to appease it's been about them all along, hasn't it? Most of them extremely wealthy, they don't give two hoots about the much trumpeted "ordinary people" at all, never have, never will...

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 13:31

Merry. Maybe less significant because they now put off entering adulthood for longer? Years ago children were only children till early teens, then mid teens, after which the transition to adulthood was abrupt. It is only recent years that has given rise to this in between generation, that has fashion, media, literature, music all devoted to it. It's a bit of a holding pen. Maybe that is the demographic skew?

jaws5 · 19/11/2016 13:32

But my objection is to you was obvious in the other thread, you made it clear. part if the PC of the left? so "the left" is united on this? I didn't realise...

BoredofBrexit · 19/11/2016 13:34

I think you will find that it a fairly widely held perception. But pardon me if I assumed too much.

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 13:43

Less significant because there are proportionately less of them - see NHS, difficulty paying for pensions, aging population, baby boomers.

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