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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
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TuckersBadLuck · 18/11/2016 16:41

The Prime Minister a press conference: "Our work is on track. We do stand ready to trigger Article 50 before the end of March, or by the end of 2017".

Is there a video of this anywhere? I can't seem to find one.

LurkingHusband · 18/11/2016 16:57

I idly find myself wondering how many EU tradesmen will be working on Buck House. Polish plumbers ? Croatian carpenters ? Estonian Electricians ? Dutch Decorators ? Italian Interiors ? German Glaziers ? Belgian Bricklayers ?

lalalonglegs · 18/11/2016 17:06

Damn, I think I've just heard the clip that Peregrina referred to and Theresa May said: "Our work is on track. We do stand ready to trigger Article 50 before the end of March, or by the end of March 2017."

tiggytape · 18/11/2016 17:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2016 18:20

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jeff-sessions-who-is-he-donald-trump-attorney-general-us-lawyer-a7425516.html
Trump's attorney general

The former head of the KKK is pleased by his appointment.

OP posts:
Kaija · 18/11/2016 18:28

Yes. I posted that link about Sessions on the Trump thread. It is truly terrifying. I just don't know where we go from here.

This isn't going to make anyone feel better, but I would really recommend Jon Ronson's (short) ebook about Alex Jones and the Trump campaign, The Elephant in the Room. It is grim but fascinating reading. (You can download it for £1.79 www.goodreads.com/book/show/32478630-the-elephant-in-the-room)

TheNorthRemembers · 18/11/2016 19:07

Lurkinghusband Grin

TheNorthRemembers · 18/11/2016 19:11

Bored Not ignoring you, just no idea what happened with markets today. I was too busy boosting the high street.

InformalRoman · 18/11/2016 19:25

TheNorthRemembers The dollar surged today as investors are betting on rising inflation under Trump next year. US bond yields increasing too.

BoredofBrexit · 18/11/2016 19:38

Here we are. www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today

InformalRoman · 18/11/2016 19:43

Except the pound closed down against both the dollar and the euro today?

Peregrina · 18/11/2016 19:48

Apropos the Noam Chomsky article linked to a few pages back - he mentions how a lot of US fundamentalist Christians are not worried by Climate Change because they expect to be 'enraptured' i.e. taken up to heaven before it happens.

The fundamentalists are a bit like the Scribes and the Pharisees that Jesus lambasted - so sure that they are right. It reminds me of a book I once read by one such Fundamentalist. He said words to the effect that a chauffeur might be driving his boss along, and suddenly he noticed that the passenger seat was empty. I thought to myself at the time that it might work the other way, that suddenly the boss found the driver had disappeared and the car was now driverless and heading for a crash. Oops.

BoredofBrexit · 18/11/2016 19:52

I meant this. The £ is settling nicely, exactly what it should be doing btw.
www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/11/18/euro-suffers-longest-losing-streak-on-record-on-divergent-policy/amp/?client=safari

InformalRoman · 18/11/2016 20:05

From Bloomberg:

Some of the biggest banks say the pound’s slide isn’t over. Citigroup Inc., the No. 1 currency trader, predicts sterling will drop 7 percent to $1.15 by year-end, from about $1.24 in New York on Friday. HSBC Holdings Plc, Europe’s largest bank, sees it reaching $1.10 by the end of 2017. Both levels would be the weakest since 1985. Options prices imply about a 50 percent chance of a $1.15 exchange rate in a year’s time.

Something to look forward to then.

TheNorthRemembers · 18/11/2016 20:10

I am not a treasury expert, but nothing major happened today to the pound. Johnson / Davies / Fox / McDonnell gave us some rest, everyone is just waiting for the next cock-up / fantastic idea [delete as appropriate at the time]. Realistically we are still within the EU yet.
But as someone who travels frequently, the falling pound is quite grim for me. Everything is so expensive for us abroad.
I wonder what the for March 2017 and maybe March 2018 GBP/EUR and GBP/USD futures look like, but too lazy / not sure where to look.

MagikarpetRide · 18/11/2016 23:46

tiggy your point 2 is what worries my about the reversibility issue more than anything. If its reversible then there's no real bargaining chip, so the EU potentially have nothing to lose in not offering much. Then at the same time, that plays into the hard brexit hands - far easier to blame the EU for not giving us a good exit deal so we're going scorched earth, etc. etc...

mathanxiety · 19/11/2016 08:23

amaravatti Fri 18-Nov-16 09:30:47
Thank you for that very interesting Washington Post article.

PattyPenguin · 19/11/2016 09:23

Article (linked to in my Facebook feed) in the New Statesman
www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/11/brexit-nightmare-we-will-soon-be-unable-ignore

Leaving the EU was supposed to save us money, was it? More examples of things the UK is going to have to set up and pay for.

amaravatti · 19/11/2016 10:10

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38036872
Mike Pence, VP-elect, booed at Hamilton musical

jaws5 · 19/11/2016 10:16

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/19/scrap-article-50-court-appeal-senior-tories-urge-may

It seems TM is under a lot of pressure to scrap appeal, they think they'll lose. Some want TM to get on with it, but there's worry about gutter press and mob reaction to the judges if Gov. lose appeal.

Scrap article 50 court appeal, senior Tories urge May. Letwin, Grieve and Garnier call for appeal against Brexit ruling to be dropped to avoid legal risks and save time and money
The former attorney general Dominic Grieve and former solicitor-general Sir Edward Garnier also said May should avoid taking the case to the highest court in the UK
Instead the Conservatives, who all supported the remain campaign, said they wanted the process to start as soon as possible with a bill in parliament.

Garnier told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Saturday: “That way you avoid an unnecessary legal row, you avoid a lot of unnecessary expense, but you also avoid an opportunity for ill-motivated people to attack the judiciary, to misconstrue the motives of both parties to the lawsuit, and you provide certainty.”

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 10:20

Re: saving money the hospital closures and cut backs seem to be all over the news. (The news I see anyway - who knows what 'the news' is anymore?).

To be completely fair, I don't think that a remain vote would have saved them, given that Brexit happened less than 6 months ago and Jeremy Hunt was Health Secretary before Brexit.

However, Theresa May clearly spoke about protecting public services in her conference speech - this was supposed to be a change in style.

She certainly isn't concentrating on the NHS at the moment - how long can you continue to sell Brexit and being anti-elite before it becomes clear that you aren't delivering the goods?

I don't understand how any sane person can talk of 'quicky divorces' in relation to the legal details. A look at the mumsnet relationships page would imply that they only work if both parties are unusually agreeable towards each other, or never have to see each other again. The difference is that the UK is going to have to continue dealing with the Europe forever. The children will never grow up.

howabout · 19/11/2016 10:27

I think TM would be foolish to drop the appeal. Without a Supreme Court ruling the High Court have left a lot of room for equivocation. No matter what the government does there would be potential for challenges further along in the process. I assume this was deliberate on the part of the High Court. The Supreme Court need the opportunity to provide clarity and making sure all interested parties are represented, as they are doing, will surely settle matters.

No surprise the Tory MPs wishing to drop the case are Remainers.

jaws5 · 19/11/2016 10:31

Yes, howabout , but it highlights the complexity of it. It's easy for Brexiteer Tories as they just want to get on with it regardless of consequences.

merrymouse · 19/11/2016 10:35

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38036872
Mike Pence, VP-elect, booed at Hamilton musical

I wonder how the whole New York thing is going to work out for Trump.
His brand is based on being a New York business man, but New Yorkers don't, to put it mildly, seem that keen on him.

TheBathroomSink · 19/11/2016 10:47

Possibly even less keen when they realise how much his desire to stay in his own NYC properties is going to cost the city, both in financial terms and in disruption:

But to accommodate a more regular presidential presence, the daily routines of ordinary New Yorkers who live in, work near or commute through a five- to 10-block radius of Trump Tower will change. They will not be able to move freely; sometimes they won’t be able to move at all. Whenever a president moves, everything nearby freezes.

From now until the end of Trump’s presidency, everyone who enters and exits the building will have to be vetted by the Secret Service, even if the Trumps aren’t there. At the very least, their names will be run through agency threat databases. The service will want to inspect every package that goes into the building and will insist that staffers — at every shop, restaurant and residence — be scanned with a hand-held magnetometer, which detects hidden metal. When Trump is there, all of their personal effects will probably be checked by bomb-detection dogs, too.

The Secret Service has a special unit that will defend Trump Tower’s electronic and cyber architecture from electronic attack. Occupants might have to surrender some privacy as agents look to monitor incoming phone calls and even Internet traffic

A single presidential visit costs the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which runs the city’s airports, $100,000 to pull off. With repeated, regular trips, price tags, delays and frustrations will scale up, quickly. When Air Force One — which costs about $236,000 per hour to fly when fully loaded with pilots, passengers, security, gear and fuel — arrives at New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport, the tarmac will be frozen for at least 15 minutes before it lands. That short delay will reverberate through the extremely crowded airspace over New York. And whenever Trump travels, hundreds of people will move with him. The NYPD will be on the hook for hundreds of hours’ worth of overtime each week.

Thanks to the barricades and blockages around Trump Tower, local businesses are already reeling from a mini-Trump recession. Henri Bendel, across the street from Trump Tower, shut its doors mid-afternoon at least twice this past week; there was not enough foot traffic to justify keeping the store open. The manager of Obicà, a fancy Italian restaurant in the IBM building, at 56th Street and Madison Avenue, told CBS News that sales were already suffering from the pre-inauguration traffic closures put in place by the police. Traffic in Midtown is always intense. It will get much worse.

Tourists, too, will find their experience of New York altered by the presence of a president. Weekend helicopter tours of the city are probably now a pleasure of the past. A temporary flight ban, instituted right after the election, will become permanent and will expand.

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