Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
amaravatti · 18/11/2016 09:30

People believe this stuff because want to and there is actually nothing you can't or do to change that. It's horrific.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/11/17/facebook-fake-news-writer-i-think-donald-trump-is-in-th

^What do the Amish lobby, gay wedding vans and the ban of the national anthem have in common? For starters, they’re all make-believe — and invented by the same man.

Paul Horner, the 38-year-old impresario of a Facebook fake-news empire, has made his living off viral news hoaxes for several years. He has twice convinced the Internet that he’s British graffiti artist Banksy; he also published the very viral, very fake news of a Yelp vs. “South Park” lawsuit last year.

But in recent months, Horner has found the fake-news ecosystem growing more crowded, more political and vastly more influential: In March, Donald Trump’s son Eric and his then-campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, even tweeted links to one of Horner’s faux-articles. His stories have also appeared as news on Google^

Paul Horner says he doesn't support Trump. There is a certain type of amoral young white man like that Milo character on Channel 4 news, who are perhaps unwitting fellow travellers in the march towards messy fascism with their confusion between humour and lying. My DSs were warning about these characters years ago, having seen it first.

It's the amorality that's the problem, not the immorality of these types. Trump, I don't think is seeking to be bad, he just doesn't recognise any distinction between good and bad. Pure Machiavellian.

One of the many confusing things about woman hood, is that we have been given the mantle of moral arbitration throughout this bit of western history: mothers are supposed to teach right and wrong, while dads can giggle about it. One of the attractive( but disliked) aspects of Obama, was his feminised personality (mum trousers, open emotion, moral compass).

As this sure feels like a war on women right now, what used to be regarded as 'good' (human rights, sharing, kindness, challenging prejudice) in 2015 no longer has any moral or political currency. It's tragic looking at the GCSE English texts(guess what I do!) which now seem obsolete, with Obama, Malala Yousafzai, Clinton even Gordon Brown speeches for analysis. Texts like 'An Inspector Calls' and 'The Lord of the Flies' with their messages about humanity and democracy already seem like ancient artefacts.

whatwouldrondo · 18/11/2016 10:53

The cross part select committee on Science and Technology have acknowledged the damage done to Science and have a plan which is actually the one Scientists have been proposing since June, an assurance of the continuation of FOM and an increase in funding to 3% of GDP (from the current 1.7%) to match the rest of the G8. I expect it will be met with continued silence

amaravatti interesting points on the issue of the feminine gender of "the other" which is surely where liberals and Obama now sit in the political scene. At least the English curriculum was spared Gov's changes to the History curriculum which put "Our Island Story" at it's heart, a move that even though Historians called it out at the time seems now even more an early move towards using the tools of facism to foster nationalism.

whatwouldrondo · 18/11/2016 10:53

Oops forgot the link www.ft.com/content/04758b98-acbe-11e6-ba7d-76378e4fef24

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2016 11:11

Accountability, Accountability, Accountability. We should all become the political version of Kirsty and Phil.

Liam Fox

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/liam-fox-leadership-backer-gets-role-overseeing-his-department-l08rt622r
Liam Fox leadership backer gets role overseeing his department

Liam Fox is facing questions over cronyism after it emerged that an “independent” director appointed to oversee his department was an outspoken supporter of his Tory leadership bid.

The Department for International Trade announced four non-executive board members yesterday whose role includes providing “independent scrutiny for the department”.

However, one of the appointments is a former business adviser to President George W Bush who has made no secret of her backing for Dr Fox.

Pippa Malmgren, the founder of a consultancy called DRPM Group, wrote on Twitter after the EU referendum that Dr Fox “will emerge as a power player” and that he was the best candidate to lead the Tories.

Look whose has allegedly been hanging out with Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner. Clue: Its NOT Farage but a British politician who many regard as equally repellent.
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tony-blair-job-trump-claim-9283321#ICID=sharebar_twitter

Alberto Nardelli ‏@AlbertoNardelli
Understand that before this morning's meeting in Berlin, Obama took May to one side, and they spoke for about 10 minutes.

To be a fly on the wall of that conversation...

OP posts:
LurkingHusband · 18/11/2016 11:12

an assurance of the continuation of FOM

Isn't going to happen.

I have a nasty feeling, FOM is deliberately being left to dangle as some sort of sick attempt to crush any resistance to Brexit. Perhaps Theresa May thinks the longer she leaves it, the more concessions she will get from the last straggling remainers. You know - 1% down, 47% to go.

morningrunner · 18/11/2016 11:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheBathroomSink · 18/11/2016 12:25

There is a certain type of amoral young white man like that Milo character on Channel 4 news, who are perhaps unwitting fellow travellers in the march towards messy fascism with their confusion between humour and lying.

Yiannopoulos is not unwitting.

prettybird · 18/11/2016 13:23

Scottish and Welsh Governments to be allowed a say at the A50 Supreme Court Appeal.

Scots and Welsh can have say in Brexit court case
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38027230

TheNorthRemembers · 18/11/2016 13:25

What happened to Adam Werrity? Now that Fox has moved on, does he have to pay for his own holidays?

prettybird · 18/11/2016 13:25

"Scotland's senior law officer, the Lord Advocate, is being invited by the Supreme Court justices to address the court on the relevance of points of Scots law, so far as they do not form part of the law of England and Wales."

....it would have opened a unwritten constitutional can of worms if they hadn't considered the impact on Scots Law.

twofingerstoGideon · 18/11/2016 13:29

I love the way that BBC report says:
UK Prime Minister Theresa May has said she is "clear" she expects to start talks on leaving the EU as planned by the end of March.
Those inverted commas speak volumes. All I've heard her say since she became PM is 'let's be clear', 'I am clear', 'Brexit means Brexit' and other meaningless soundbites. She has been far from 'clear' at any point.

CeciledeVolanges · 18/11/2016 13:38

I disagree, I think it is crystal clear she has no idea what she is doing

SapphireStrange · 18/11/2016 14:21

I disagree, I think it is crystal clear she has no idea what she is doing

I'm Grin but at the same time, it really ISN'T funny, is it?

Peregrina · 18/11/2016 14:27

This is a quote from the ITV website:

The Prime Minister a press conference: "Our work is on track. We do stand ready to trigger Article 50 before the end of March, or by the end of 2017".

Did Theresa May really say this? End of 2017?

twofingerstoGideon · 18/11/2016 14:33

Yes. That's what she said.

Peregrina · 18/11/2016 14:36

Is she going to correct this, or what?

Common sense would decree that for anyone wanting to make a success of Brexit, that getting your negotiating position sorted out before hand, would take time, and rushing does no one any favours. But there doesn't seem to be much common sense around in the Government at the moment.

BoredofBrexit · 18/11/2016 15:03

Looks like she wants to wait till after the EU elections; did think that she might do this.

Palermonese · 18/11/2016 15:14

Carlo Calenda, the Italian economic development minister, gave an account of a conversation with Johnson. “He basically said, ‘I don’t want free movement of people but I want the single market,’” said Calenda. “I said, ‘No way.’ He said, ‘You’ll sell less prosecco.’ I said, ‘OK, you’ll sell less fish and chips, but I’ll sell less prosecco to one country and you’ll sell less to 27 countries.’ Putting things on this level is a bit insulting.”

Unlike BoJo to miss an insult ... there's a less-than-complimentary Italian perception about the English and fish and chips - the comment can be taken on two levels. It's amusing the UK press rushed to publish it, before checking.

HummusForBreakfast · 18/11/2016 15:31

For anyone interested in the US elections and Trumps, an interesting article with N Chomsky.
www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/38360-trump-in-the-white-house-an-interview-with-noam-chomsky

And his idea that Trumps is dangerous for other reasons that the ones usually talked about, ie the environment and his total lack of care about it.

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2016 15:43

Well the High Court in Belfast have decided that the NI a50 challenge can skip the Court of Appeal and go straight to the Supreme Court.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/brexit/brexit-challenge-supreme-court-to-decide-if-uk-needs-northern-irelands-consent-to-leave-eu-35226435.html

The case will be heard along side the People's Challenge a50 Case.

The Supreme Court have also accepted today, the Scottish Government's intervention and application to join the case.

The Daily Express are doing a Brexitfast Tea Caddy promotion.
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/anger-after-daily-express-confuses-ireland-and-northern-ireland-on-brexit-tea-caddy-35224429.html
Minor Issue.
It seems to have ambitions to rejoin Ireland into the British Empire.

www.policeprofessional.com/news.aspx?id=27774
And on the list of things the government haven't thought about, is cross border policing in NI with the Republic of Ireland.

Trump's team deny that he wanted a Muslim Registry.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-muslim-registry-video-president-islam-policies-immigration-a7424511.html
Trouble is, there is a tape...

Oh, the lovable Milo. Who got owned by Cathy Newman. That interview was I don't care about you, but you should care what I think. All these groups are about feelings and that's wrong, but you should all understand how I feel. We should talk about fact, except I'm really into post-facts. Without a hint of irony.

Anyway, this is an observation about alt-right.
Jasmin Mujanović ‏@JasminMuj
The #AltRight are losers. This is not an ad hominem. It's a sociological observation, consistent w traditional far-right mobilizations. Notice the consistent makers of #AltRight activists: anonymity and a pronounced victimization complex. Their outward aggression masks obvious fear of increased competition in world in which women, POC, immigrants, disabled are equal.
Their politics is a pursuit of literal patriarchy: a father figure to protect them from a changing world, to punish their “enemies.” They’re quick to abandon rule of law, civil rights bc they never embraced them to begin with. Blame liberalism for their “victimization.”
Hence when they attack political correctness, cultural Marxism, SJWs they mean: I am afraid bc I cannot compete w others. It is an implicit recognition and endorsement of white supremacy and male privilege; I need these to survive, I am afraid w/o them.
Misogyny key for #AltRight bc women first, most obvious target. Idea being: if women disappear from public life, more “resources” for me. Also why #AltRight a middle not working class thing by & large; middle class intellectually built around resentment, fear, entitlement. This closely resembles origins of #fascism, which grew out of myth of national loss, betrayal by scheming minorities (Jews, communists). Ultimately, this is a political not economic argument and we must counter it.
We cannot re-negotiate equality and freedom for anyone. Nor can we legitimize their grievances: reactionaries are not legitimate participants in civil discourse. Nor are they “conservatives.” Conservatives embrace change albeit in “organic” fashion. Reactionaries recognize progress but want to violently, coercively undo it. This is a threat not merely to minorities they target but to very idea of free society. All decent ppl must organize and resist them. Bc if we do use our right to dissent, protest, to criticism today--these reactionaries have and will take that right and others away.

The point I find most fascinating in there is the idea of the victim.

How many times in his interview with Cathy did Yiannopoulos, go on about women, minority groups etc playing the victim card and hurt feelings? But isn't the opposite really true?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/18/brexit-row-keir-starmer-john-mcdonnell-threatens-labour-truce?CMP=twt_gu
Keir Starmer is pissed with John McDonnell and his 'support Brexit stuff'.

In news just in, Buckingham Palace is to get a £369million make over. This will go down well.

OP posts:
amaravatti · 18/11/2016 16:03

But isn't the opposite really true?
Don't bullies/abusers usually have a victim complex?

BoredofBrexit · 18/11/2016 16:19

Anyone care to comment/offer an analysis of the markets?

LurkingHusband · 18/11/2016 16:33

Trouble is, there is a tape..

No trouble at all. In a world where an increasing number of people believe in the Moon Landing Hoax, just shouting "it's a fake" loud enough will make it irrelevant.

There really is a whole swathe of people for whom the phrase "you can prove anything you like with facts" is not remotely contentious.

Political beliefs are replacing religious beliefs faster than we realise. This is where people will happily burn you at the stake in the honest belief they are saving your soul.

The only bitter consolation is when it backfires on the elite, it'll be their heads on spikes.

Honestly, has no one read The Man Who Would Be King ? I would have thought Kipling was compulsory at Brexit Bootcamp Hmm

LurkingHusband · 18/11/2016 16:39

In news just in, Buckingham Palace is to get a £369million make over. This will go down well.

I'm surprised there hasn't been a UKIP press statement yet:

UKIPs Buck House Brexit Boost.

Following the historic decision to leave the EU, UKIP are pleased announce more positive news - the improvements to pensioners state subsidised house. With money saved by leaving the EU, it has been possible to start renovations totalling £350 million to Buckingham Palace ....

(sorry, had to stop, a little bit of sick came up ....)

amaravatti · 18/11/2016 16:40

Posting from CommonGround similar to what you said about accountability Red but clear about the need for the 'referendum lock' but if the timescale really is slipping to the end of 2017, watch out for being bounced into deals.

^MPs should insist on vetting final Brexit deal

by Hugo Dixon | 16.11.2016
Much of the current focus in parliament is on whether Theresa May should be required to produce a plan setting out her key Brexit objectives. This is quite right. What, indeed, is the plan? Without a good one, it would be foolhardy to embark on such a risky enterprise.

But MPs and peers should focus as much on the end of the process as the beginning. Specifically, they should insist on being able to force a change of course if they don’t like the divorce terms – or if May fails to produce any deal at all.

So long as the prime minister is able to negotiate a withdrawal agreement in the two years provided for under Article 50, parliament will have to give its consent. After all, the agreement will presumably be a treaty – and MPs have the power to stop the government ratifying treaties.

A further referendum may also be required at this point. Under the European Union Act 2011, which created the so-called “referendum lock”, a plebiscite is required before any treaty that amends or replaces the existing EU treaties can be ratified. If the voters rejected the deal, we would then stay in the EU.

One snag is that May could come back with an agreement so late in the day that parliament would have little choice but to let the prime minister ratify it – say if she triggers Article 50 in March 2017 and returns with a deal in February 2019.

Such eleventh-hour brinkmanship would also mean there wasn’t time to hold a referendum. The last referendum lasted over two months. Even if a plebiscite was held, it could take place after we had already quit the EU, making its result pretty pointless.

Another risk is that May is unable to negotiate any deal in the time available. Maybe the discussions would get so fraught that one or other side would walk out. Maybe the talks would drag on without conclusion. Since there wouldn’t be an agreement, there wouldn’t be any need to get parliament’s consent – or hold a referendum.

Neither outcome is remotely satisfactory. Parliament could be bounced into agreeing a deal that wasn’t any good because the alternative of flouncing out of the EU without any agreement was too horrible to contemplate. Alternatively, we might actually quit without a deal – a scenario that’s likely to cause huge economic damage.

But MPs and peers can and should guard against these risks. They could set a deadline by which she must bring back the final withdrawal agreement so it can be debated properly. They could also say that, if the prime minister cannot produce a deal by the specified deadline, she must persuade parliament to renew her negotiating mandate.

Insisting on such a process at the end of the Brexit talks will mean May is subject to appropriate democratic checks rather than given a blank cheque.

Hugo Dixon is co-founder of CommonGround as well as editor-in-chief of InFacts.^