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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

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Thread gallery
13
Unicornsarelovely · 17/11/2016 19:07

Thank you for the lrb article. That last paragraph packs quite a punch, doesn't it!

BoredOfBrexit · 17/11/2016 19:31

I am so over pills but as a leaver I would interpret those figures as representing people's frustration that progress has not been able to be made due to recent impediments - whether rightful or not (and I am not arguing that they are not rightful) they have had the effect of unsettling and annoying a large percentage of the population.

BoredOfBrexit · 17/11/2016 19:31

Polls. God.

Peregrina · 17/11/2016 19:39

I would interpret the results as totally reflecting the incompetence of the present Government. But one person's guess is as good as another's unless we know exactly what question was asked.

BoredOfBrexit · 17/11/2016 19:41

Quite, Peregrina.

mathanxiety · 17/11/2016 20:03

"The upper echelons of the third reich were at times paralysed by infighting. None of which was helped by Hitlers habit of giving different subordinates the same jobs, and letting them fight it out with each other."

This is how the Holocaust was accomplished. All the subordinates competed with each other for Hitler's pat on the head for a job well done. Eventually a degree of co-operation emerged among the various agencies with a stake in the murder and exploitation.

RedToothBrush · 17/11/2016 20:40

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Top lines from Obama valedictory in Europe - he "hopes" that Trump will "stand up" to Russia, but also implies he might not last 4 years

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lalalonglegs · 17/11/2016 20:54

Funnily enough, math, that's the same technique that Paul Dacre uses at the Daily Mail - hires two people for the same job and sees which one is most prepared to sink to any level hungriest.

HesterThrale · 17/11/2016 21:05

Very scary interview on Channel 4 news about Breitbart. The presenter successfully argued with Milo Yiannopoulos, who seemed to be saying that news agencies can say anything they like, however offensive. (Is it then news any longer?)

www.channel4.com/news/milo-yiannopolous-questioned-on-donald-trump-and-stephen-bannon

Kaija · 17/11/2016 21:37

Sorry if this has been posted already, but Open Britain have compiled a handy bit of video evidence here for Brexiters who keep saying "We always said Leaving meant leaving the single market"

m.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY

HesterThrale · 17/11/2016 21:58

At last, a politician who 'says it like it is' about Trump. Well, Trump does it.
Watch the vid:

m.facebook.com/AodhanORiordain/?fref=ts

Kaija · 17/11/2016 22:03

We need a few more like him.

Kaija · 17/11/2016 22:05

The Milo interview was truly skin crawling. Even scarier stuff on him in Laurie Penny's piece here:

medium.com/welcome-to-the-scream-room/im-with-the-banned-8d1b6e0b2932#.20v80u2nm

TheNorthRemembers · 17/11/2016 22:37

Red Wow! Very interesting comment from Faisal Islam about Obama's speech. Someone said in the replies that in his acceptance speech Trump himself hinted at the possibility of not serving the full-term, so I looked it up:

"I look very much forward to being your President and hopefully at the end of two years or three years or four years or maybe even eight years you will say that that was something you were really very proud to do.
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/donald-trumps-election-victory-speech-9224206

IMHO it could just be bad turn of a phrase. He might have just meant that there will be tangible results by then. He is not exactly an orator.

mathanxiety · 17/11/2016 23:07

That remark of Trump's sort of jumped out at me at the time. He may have been referring to the midterm elections in two years time. The midterm elections are a sort of opinion poll on how the president is doing.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/17/civil-servants-befuddled-trump-casual-invitation-may

Donald Trump has reportedly left civil servants amused and befuddled by extending an unusual and un presidential invitation to Theresa May.

Downing Street refused to deny a leaked transcript in which the president-elect told the British prime minister: “If you travel to the US you should let me know.”

Given that this was the first conversation since the billionaire’s unexpected victory, and was meant to formally reassure both parties over the “special relationship” between the US and the UK, it has been compared by Twitter users to a casual invite to a friend, not a state visit.

Asked about the reported conversation, the prime minister’s spokesman said: “The invitation from the president-elect was a very warm invitation to come as soon as possible.”

There's a little cognitive dissonance going on here. Or maybe wishful thinking, given that she was 10th in line for the magic phone call.

Meanwhile, Enda Kenny nailed down a date with Trump for St Patrick's Day.

SwedishEdith · 17/11/2016 23:23

The Milo interview was creepy but Cathy Newman was good - angry, but persistent.

Sarah Churchwell predicted Trump would only last 2 years on QT last week. He didn't plan to win (sounds familiar). Wanted to be in HC's position - win the popular vote but not the job.

RedToothBrush · 17/11/2016 23:51

Interesting conversations ongoing on Twitter about the US election. There are rumblings about potential legal challenges as some states are showing signs of dubious voting patterns. Trump was supposed to be officially confirmed on 2nd Dec as president but some suggestion on that, it may be delayed by a week due to at least one state having problems with remaining ballots that are not yet counted over whether voters were properly registered or not.

I don't think it will change anything if it does happen but it will be interesting to see if someone does question what happens as it has implications for the next Presidential election and how they are run.

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Peregrina · 18/11/2016 00:23

Nothing came of Al Gore's challenge, although I think it was accepted unofficially that in reality he had won. So they obviously didn't have a ballot with 'hanging chads' this time, but they still had problems.

mathanxiety · 18/11/2016 01:26

Afaik, there are still votes to be counted, though they won't change the overall result. There has been speculation that EC members could go rogue and vote for HRC.

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2016 08:08

Someone is firing their top secret weather machine at Manchester. Unholy thunder. Never heard anything like. Thought it was a plane crashing at first as I just couldn't work out what it was it was so loud.

I think 2016 may have got to me.

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RedToothBrush · 18/11/2016 08:48

Blog on false news in US. As on 'Christian Times' website which in itself is of dubious origin. I love the inclusion of stock photos from the Uk to suggest Clinton had a warehouse of fake ballot papers.
www.bloggerheads.com/archives/2016/10/christian-times-electoral-fraud/

"Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." Matthew 7:15

Obama on fake news.
www.theguardian.com/media/2016/nov/17/barack-obama-fake-news-facebook-social-media?CMP=twt_gu

Today trump has tweeted about saving a car plant from moving to Mexico by being elected. It was never moving to Mexico. Yet it's being widely reported by news in us (including Reuters!) as a trump achievement.

So what trump does or doesn't do may actually be completely irrelevant.

It's like many of the things going on post Brexit only on steroids.

People believe this stuff because want to and there is actually nothing you can't or do to change that. It's horrific.

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RedToothBrush · 18/11/2016 09:00

The Associated Press @AP
BREAKING: Volkswagen says it will shed 30,000 jobs, 23,000 of them in Germany, to cut costs and improve profitability.

So about Germany needing the Uk export market.... I would say that might well be in preparation for up coming changes in the market. Which would include Brexit.

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RedToothBrush · 18/11/2016 09:09

www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/11/17/facebook-fake-news-writer-i-think-donald-trump-is-in-the-white-house-because-of-me/?tid=sm_tw
Washington post interview with a fake news site owner in which he says he hates trump, the effects of fake news sites are terrifying, fb should crack down on it as long as it's not his sites as he's making $10000 a month so he will just start other sites!

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Peregrina · 18/11/2016 09:23

I suspect that Volkswagen's fiddling the omissions stats is what has helped to damage it, rather than Brexit.