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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 14/11/2016 21:37

Obama says 'Good soundbites don't make good policy'. Theresa May, please note. Brexit means Brexit is just that, a soundbite.

Obama to me seems to be a true gentleman. Not without his flaws as we all are, but I am so sorry they couldn't elect another president of similar stature. I hope we see him in a substantial role on the world stage in due course.

merrymouse · 14/11/2016 21:48

Also, Obama talked about governments obeying the law - T May please note.

amaravatti · 14/11/2016 21:52

Safety pins being worn in america too(is that still going here?) as sign of solidarity.
Be friend ing system to accompany people who feel vulnerable has been set up.
5,500 in New York have volunteered to help in one day.

StripeyMonkey1 · 14/11/2016 21:52

I have just managed to catch up with your earlier posting on the article 50 appeal Red. I haven't seen anything so far that makes me think the appeal stands a realistic change of success.

I don't think that Theresa May is appealing the article 50 decision because she thinks she can win. I think it is a political stunt, designed to show her as an 'outsider' fighting against the establishment. Those Daily Mail headlines must have been like gold dust to her, as a longstanding part of the Tory party establishment, casting her Trump or Farrage style as a crusader for the people. The appeal will mean more of the same.

The bit that makes me really cross is that she is wasting public money, the people's money, in the process and bringing our valuable and much-respected legal system into disrepute.

Boredofbrexit · 14/11/2016 22:02

Unless of course she doesn't intend to Brexit.

HesterThrale · 14/11/2016 22:07

A tiny positive perspective... The inevitability of all this happening; 1% of people controlling most of the wealth; similarities with the 20s and 30s - yet differences: Trump not like Hitler; need for progressives to rise.
theconversation.com/trump-victory-comes-with-a-silver-lining-for-the-worlds-progressives-68523

StripeyMonkey1 · 14/11/2016 22:15

That's also possible Bored but I can't see her having much of a political career after.

For what it's worth, I don't trust her either, but probably for different reasons. Her political positioning and manoeuvring are very opportunistic. She hasn't exactly covered herself in glory so far as PM.

Peregrina · 14/11/2016 22:31

TM is in her own way, another BoJo - what she wants is what's good for her, first and last. I suspect that whatever she does, her political career will be finished. Unlike BoJo, her ambition was so overweening she didn't stop to think that their might be poison in the chalice.

Boredofbrexit · 14/11/2016 22:39

Am not sure it's purely ambition. It's a bit like serving ones country _ I think she thinks she's 'doing the best thing' and that level of zeal is discomfiting.

mathanxiety · 15/11/2016 06:15

Chicago has been a sanctuary city for a while.

I know a good few people who go every Friday evening to a gathering outside a suburban Chicago detention centre for deportees to pray for justice. Deportation of illegal immigrants has been going on for several years in the US. Trump is not starting something new.

"Q: What's the easiest way to remove women from the labour (sorry, labor) market ?"
"A: Bang on about "family values" and foster an environment making working women feel somehow less-than-perfect mothers."
Worked in immediate post war Britain, but then we had a lot of men returning from the Forces. Is there that same pool of male Labour available in the US?

No there isn't, and the US is also home to millions of people - single and couples - who are up to their ears in mortgage and car payments, single mothers whose child support/alimony would not go far, and millions of women who have been brought up to expect equality of opportunity with their brothers, who have played very competitive sport in school, whose parents have sent them to university, who are up to their necks in university or grad school loan repayments, and who therefore couldn't afford to stay home and free up their spot for some man. So I think this exodus of women from the workplace simply isn't going to happen.

....

I have to say, observing the presence of so many millionaires and billionaires in politics in both the UK and the US, we all owe Ronald Reagan a huge thank you. It was under his presidency that the rich stopped paying their fair share of taxes (down from about 75% of their income in the US to about the mid 20s now iirc) and clearly some of the rich have used their money set themselves up as old style robber barons exercising power well outside of the limits of the democratic process.

CeciledeVolanges · 15/11/2016 06:20

I've just heard on the radio that a memo has been leaked showing that there actually is no plan!
500 different projects going on in the Civil Service, each of which has come up with a worst case scenario but no plan.
No overall plan in Whitehall because the Cabinet can't agree (although apparently Fallon, Johnson, Fox and Priti Patel all agree they want to keep selling arms to Saudi Arabia).

PattyPenguin · 15/11/2016 06:21

As suspected, there is no plan.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37983948

"The government has no overall Brexit plan and a negotiating strategy may not be agreed by the cabinet for six months, a leaked memo has suggested.
The memo - obtained by the Times and seen by the BBC - warns Whitehall is working on 500 Brexit-related projects and could need 30,000 extra staff.
However, there is still no common exit strategy "because of divisions within the cabinet", the leaked document adds.
A government spokesman said it "didn't recognise" the claims made in the memo.
Prime Minister Theresa May hopes to invoke Article 50 - beginning the formal two-year process for leaving the EU - by the end of March next year.
However, BBC political correspondent Chris Mason - who has seen the memo - says the document shows how "complex, fraught and challenging delivering Brexit will be".
The leaked Cabinet Office memo - written by an un-named consultant and entitled "Brexit Update" of 7 November - suggests it will take another six months before the government decides precisely what it wants to achieve from Brexit or agrees on its priorities.
The report criticises Mrs May, who it says is "acquiring a reputation of drawing in decisions and details to settle matters herself" - an approach it describes as being "unlikely to be sustainable."
The Times says the document also identifies cabinet splits between Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson, Brexit Secretary David Davis and International Trade Secretary Liam Fox on one side, and Chancellor Philip Hammond and Business Secretary Greg Clark on the other.
According to the newspaper, the memo said: "Every department has developed a 'bottom-up' plan of what the impact of Brexit could be - and its plan to cope with the 'worst case'.
"Although necessary, this falls considerably short of having a 'government plan for Brexit' because it has no prioritisation and no link to the overall negotiation strategy."
The memo also suggests the government does not have enough officials to implement Brexit quickly, while departments are developing individual plans resulting in "well over 500 projects".
It estimates an additional 30,000 extra civil servants could be required to meet the workload.
However, our correspondent says money to pay for the extra staff will not be provided in next week's Autumn Statement.
The document also says big businesses could soon "point a gun at the government's head" to secure what they need to maintain jobs and investment.
It comes as Japanese car manufacturer Nissan said it was given "support and assurances" over trading conditions once Britain leaves the EU.
Asked to comment on the leaked document, a government spokesman said it was focused on "getting on with the job of delivering Brexit and making a success of it."

Boredofbrexit · 15/11/2016 06:25

Even if there had been a plan they'd be tearing it up now in the light of recent developments. But not surprised by the dumb idea from those four.

mathanxiety · 15/11/2016 06:30

I am also Irish, Usuallydormant, and first, thank you for the article you linked to earlier. Secondly, I agree with your observations wrt Ireland and the EU. I think communication of the effects of the EU on Ireland has been far better than in the UK.

I think there is also a 'When my country takes her place among the nations of the earth' [Robert Emmet] element to the EU for Ireland. Membership is in many ways the fulfillment of a nationalist dream of Ireland as mistress of her own destiny, choosing to be allied to others, or not. Ireland was extremely proud of its first Eurovision win (and subsequent wins), the deployment of Irish United Nations troops to the Congo in the 60s (though that ended in tragedy) and membership of the UN too. Ireland seeks a world reach through participation, lacking an imperial past outside of Irish Catholic missionary efforts, and being conscious of coming from behind economically-speaking and in terms of size. Previously, Ireland's only overt connection to Europe was via Rome. Brussels has been a counterbalance to that influence in recent times, one that was welcomed as a much needed boot to the behind of older Ireland.

I think there is a comprehensive contrast there with the UK.

If I was running an pro-Europe campaign in Ireland for my generation, I guess (and this is very personal), you could include memories of Spanish and Italian students learning English in Dublin, the many EU structural funding signs improving roads around the country, six nations rugby, our viking connections, the lovely French man in the Kerrygold ads smile Equal Pay being forced on the goverment, holidays in French campsites, working in German factories during university holidays, Italia 90...things that emphasise the shared postive memories and experiences with other European citizens and cultures. You can argue that Europe is not the EU but to all intents and purposes it is, and rejecting the EU is rejecting being seen as European.
Not a bit personal imo. At least one other person shares it (moi Smile).
Don't forget more recent very happy memories of the Irish and Swedish fans entertaining everyone in France.

dudleymcdudley · 15/11/2016 06:35

I don't think an appeal on the article 50 case to the Supreme Court is a waste of public money, whatever the Government's motives.

A decisive ruling by the highest constitutional court removes any doubt over what the domestic legal position is.

Given the disclosure that there actually is no plan, the Cabinet can't agree and TM is trying to behave like a lone wolf, any delays in triggering article 50 have to be a good thing.

Boredofbrexit · 15/11/2016 06:38

But isn't that Irelands place on the world stage too? Why stop at Europe? We will always be a part of Europe. Leavers would just prefer to be freed from the shackles of membership of the EU. To leavers the EU and Europe are not synonymous.

HesterThrale · 15/11/2016 06:59

Why am I not surprised that there's no Govt. plan for Brexit? It's an impossible ask.
The Tories wanted a referendum to sort out internal divisions, but now they're more split than ever. When will this charade end?

HesterThrale · 15/11/2016 07:01

I mean, exiting is impossible under the Article 50 structure, which obviously wasn't designed to make it easy or beneficial for a country to leave.

Motheroffourdragons · 15/11/2016 07:39

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

usuallydormant · 15/11/2016 08:56

But bored, being part of the EU doesn't stop Ireland being open to the rest of the world, and we often punch above our weight in the Anglosphere (thanks in part to our emigrants). Remember, Trump called Enda Kenny before May. Seems like it was just to confirm the St Patrick's day party in the White House Confused .

Ireland and the US have always had a special relationship - not one I always approve of, but it is there nonetheless. And we have a very cosy relationship with US multinationals... It's not an either/or scenario.

Math, I live in France now and it is amazing how much goodwill we picked up from the Euro this year, lots of strangers now mention it when they ask where I'm from with a big smile on their face. I also agree that being part of the EU allowed us to be Not British and reduce the reliance on the UK. The motivations for being in the EU are very, very different than for the UK.

Boredofbrexit · 15/11/2016 09:16

Dormant Maybe that is the difference then...I'd never want to be 'Not British' as you put it. Even as a proud ascot with our own links to the US (and now Trump eek)

Boredofbrexit · 15/11/2016 09:17

Proud Scot sorry, on bumpy bus. I'm not an ascot. Isn't that a sort of boilerGrin

HFWFHAJwithlove · 15/11/2016 09:24

In terms of image management and spin, I am surprised at the T. May's choice of dress at last night's Lord Mayor's Banquet where May reiterated her obsession about immigrants and people's fear of immigration.

In my eyes this looks like an extremely frivolous and unflattering but saying that would be a bit bitchy frock to wear when sharing one's bigoted, nationalist, racist world view Envy.

Interestingly the Mail's reporting on this presents her in a somewhat ridiculing way as apparently members in the audience feel asleep during her rant on immigrants.

HFWFHAJwithlove · 15/11/2016 09:27

this

She ranting about the global elite again

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?
Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?
Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?
Peregrina · 15/11/2016 09:34

Meanwhile, the electrification of the railway line near me has been 'deferred' i.e. kicked into the long grass. Seeing the gantries installed at Didcot, I was looking forward to it. I am not surprised because the geological conditions were proving more challenging than they expected.
But there is always money for vanity projects, it seems. The extended route for HS2 has been announced.

Sorry, derailing this thread, no pun intended. To try to bring the thread back on track (groan, another unintended bad pun), what we need is more engineers like Brunel, (son of a Frenchman). Oh but wait, we can't have FoM, because we don't want immigrants.