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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

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Thread gallery
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InformalRoman · 15/11/2016 09:58

Just to "derail" a little more - how can the geological conditions could be more challenging than expected? There will have been a detailed assessment along the route. Either (a) someone has messed up on the interpretation and design or (b) cash going to be diverted to something else more politically expedient.

Peregrina · 15/11/2016 10:06

Informal - I think both a) and b) apply. DS was working on the project a couple of years ago, so my info came from him; it may have been more than the geology, I will have to ask again. There is also a shortage of qualified staff capable of doing the work.

MagikarpetRide · 15/11/2016 10:07

I was having a chat to my neighbour re trump and the idea he was more supportive of traditional family values last night. She mentioned that the rise in ukip votes where we are in the last ge had been seen as quite surprising given our MP is so far to the right of the Tories he may as well be a kipper. Then she pointed out that our mp has rather publicly aired his views that women who stay at home are lazy whilst at the same time saying mums aren't capable of fulfilling higher level roles. She knows a lot of women who voted for the kipper because he was more 'work if you want but staying at home is also work that is equally as valid'.

Peregrina · 15/11/2016 10:35

The Times has an article on Cabinet splits.

For some reason I was able to access it, but in case you are blocked by the paywall, here are some extracts:

The memo, dated November 7 and titled Brexit Update, says that “major players” in industry are expected to “point a gun at the government’s head” after ministers gave assurances that the carmaker Nissan would not suffer when Britain left the EU.

It is critical of Theresa May’s governing style, saying that her tendency of “drawing in decisions and details to settle matters herself” cannot be sustained, and predicting that senior civil servants may have to intervene.

The Prime Minister’s over-riding objective has been to keep her party from repeating its history of splitting 4 times in the past 200 years over global trade — each time being out of power for 15-30 years. The public stance of Government is orientated primarily to its own supporters, with industry in particular barely being on the radarscreen — yet.

The Government’s appeal to the Supreme Court has to be seen in this light — it is about avoiding any more public debate than necessary because it will expose splits within the predominantly “remain” Conservative MPs and intensify the pressure from predominantly “leave” constituency parties. A General Election is only a last resort for 3 reasons — boundary changes (that favour the Conservatives) will not be effective until 2019; the Fixed Term Parliaments Act obstructs Prime Ministerial freedom to call an election at will; and it may suit major decision makers to slowly shift away from more difficult aspects of Brexit on the grounds that Parliament has forced them to do so.

The divisions within the Cabinet are between the 3 Brexiteers on one side and Philip Hammond/Greg Clark on the other side. .....

Industry has 2 unpleasant realisations — first, that the Government’s priority remains its political survival, not the economy — second, that there will be no clear economic-Brexit strategy any time soon because it is being developed on a case-by-case basis as specific decisions are forced on Government.

There you have it people. Tory party unity is more important than what is best for the country.

MagikarpetRide · 15/11/2016 10:42

Ha peregrina. And there I was thinking news couldn't get more obvious today than there's no plan for brexit Grin

InformalRoman · 15/11/2016 10:55

Interesting opinion piece in The Guardian today: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/15/rust-belt-middle-class-wiped-out

It highlights that 80,000 civil service jobs have gone in the UK since Cameron came to power in 2010.

And now we need another 30,000 civil servants to deliver a Brexit plan?

harvestmoon32 · 15/11/2016 10:59

Cameron should be sitting in a corner rocking as a result of his monumental lack of judgement over the Referendum. But no, he's busy making £2,000 a minute giving after dinner speeches to bankers about the impact of Brexit. Makes you sick.

jaws5 · 15/11/2016 11:11

Cameron should be sitting in a corner rocking exactly, I often wonder how he feels after being responsible for the biggest fuckup in recent history. And now, further proof that there's no cunning plan. And Labour are a bunch of appeasing fuckwits.
TM is out of her depth and obviously clinging to power for her own fanatical reasons -- I gave up on the idea that she was playing a game long ago...
Meanwhile,
Brexit: UK trade deals 'could be vetoed by other countries' after EU withdrawal. Former European Parliament president Pat Cox warned trade deals could be delayed if other countries vote against them
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-updates-trade-deal-block-veto-pat-cox-a7418266.html
They really are in control, right? But let's not "talk the country down" and it will all be fine by some sort of supernatural explanation...

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2016 11:13

Informal there was something about the civil service struggling to cope due to austerity cuts PRIOR to Brexit. They could not cope with the amount of work and there were crisis talks over it.

Its not a surprise we need more civil servants in the slightest.

This point important:
Deborah Haynes ‏@haynesdeborah
Brexit memo was seen and aided by senior civil servants. @Number10gov should stop shooting the messenger and start addressing the challenges

This was in a sense a revolt by the civil service. Such a rebellion was mentioned by someone in a list of obstacles May face (I forget who it was) as a real possibility. I think this is really a sign of it.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 15/11/2016 11:15

US News
(Seeing as much is somewhat connected to fears and politics here at the moment - until we see a plan at least).
Like Chicago, immigrant safe haven in LA.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
LA police chief won't enact Trump deportation plan, in city where 1 in 11 of all Illegal immigrants in US live:

www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-los-angeles-police-immigration-20161114-story.html

^LAPD will not help deport immigrants under Trump, chief says
For decades, the LAPD has distanced itself from federal immigration policies. The LAPD prohibits officers from initiating contact with someone solely to determine whether he or she is in the country legally, mandated by a special order signed by then-chief Daryl Gates in 1979. During Beck’s tenure as chief, the department stopped turning over people arrested for low-level crimes to federal agents for deportation and moved away from honoring federal requests to detain inmates who might be deportable past their jail terms.^

Nellie Bowles ‏@NellieBowles
Facebook shelved plan to scrub fake news because it hit conservative sites. Daily reminder: Thiel is on the board.

gizmodo.com/facebooks-fight-against-fake-news-was-undercut-by-fear-1788808204?utm_medium=sharefromsite&utm_source=Gizmodo_twitter

One source said high-ranking officials were briefed on a planned News Feed update that would have identified fake or hoax news stories, but it disproportionately impacted right wing news sites by downgrading or removing content from people’s feeds. According to the source, the update was shelved and never released to the public.

^(((Yair Rosenberg))) @Yair_Rosenberg
This is a big deal especially at this moment: American Jewish Committee and Islamic Society of North American launch Muslim Jewish Council

Robert Harris ‏@Robert_Harris
Obama's description of Merkel as "my closest international partner over the past 8 years" seems a gratuitous snub of Cameron
Wow, so Cameron has pulled off a triple: he's trashed relations with Europe & US AND given UK a constitutional nervous breakdown

From Courtney Groeneveld (FB)
My friend’s wife campaigned for Obama and for Hillary. She joined a call with him today and he shared a few excerpts:
Your President feels your pain.
Surprising losses are worse than the ones you see coming
Progress doesn’t always follow a straight line
I’m giving you a whole week and a half to get over this. But come Thanksgiving, its time to stop moping and get organizing – something I know a little about.
I’m constrained in what I can do until I’m a private citizen
But come February (maybe a litte later after a vacation), Michelle and I will be right there with you.
In the meantime stay involved locally
I’m still fired up and I’m still ready to go.

Obama is far from done. He's not going anywhere. He might not be President but he still has power.

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jaws5 · 15/11/2016 11:16

Fuck, just seen this. Anand Menon, academic from King’s College London, thinks Hard Brexit is on the cards, because the economy is not doing badly enough (yet), anti-immigration sentiment and EU willing to set an example.
blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/11/14/like-it-or-not-and-most-dont-we-are-heading-for-a-hard-brexit/

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2016 11:18

UK News
Re: There is no plan.
Can someone name someone who is unsurprised by this 'revelation'?

I think there are four take home points from the memo they are:

  1. Splits within the cabinet also mean that the government may need another six months to decide on its priorities
    March is only FOUR months away. So we will be going into negotiations BEFORE we decide what our priorities are. Triggering a50 in March is lunacy.

  2. “major players” in industry are expected to “point a gun at the government’s head” after ministers gave assurances that the carmaker Nissan would not suffer when Britain left the EU.
    The government are going to find it difficult to overlook these. They can't afford to.

  3. It is critical of Theresa May’s governing style, saying that her tendency of “drawing in decisions and details to settle matters herself” cannot be sustained
    May is acting like a dictator, and its unsustainable. So at some point there is it going to come to a head.

  4. could need to hire 30,000 extra civil servants
    The European Commission only employs 25,000 civil servants. It doesn't seem as inefficient and wasteful as previous reports have made out, in that context.

Part of The Times article reads as follows:
The Prime Minister’s over-riding objective has been to keep her party from repeating its history of splitting 4 times in the past 200 years over global trade – each time being out of power for 15-30 years. The public stance of Government is orientated primarily to its own supporters, with industry in particular not being on the radarscreen – yet.

So party first, country second.

Chris Grayling is quoted as saying in response to the story:
“The process is complex but by no means the challenge that is set out in today’s newspaper story,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme. “I have a team of people in my department who are working with David Davis on issues like aviation, but I do not see the scale of the challenge that is in today’s newspaper.”

This is kind of staggering and he is either lying, or he's blind.

David Allen Green comes down on the side of blind.
Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Just as Grayling didn't see the complexity in his botched criminal legal aid "reform", which had to be abandoned.

This pretty much sums it up:
Oliver Riches‏@RichesOliver
@Lawandpolicy we're not there yet, but this is shaping up to be a political disaster of truly epic proportions.

What happens if it all goes tits up? Do people go to Labour and Corbyn or do they go towards UKIP and Farage. I am more worried about the latter than I was.

This observation is important. The title says it all really:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/farage-is-filling-our-foreign-policy-vacuum-h2w8txzmb
Farage is filling our foreign policy vacuum
The PM has nothing to say on major diplomacy issues and treats Boris like a fool who cannot be trusted to do his job

Where are Labour? Fox labelled Farage as 'leader of the opposition' on the news. Its starting to become increasingly difficult to argue against that. It may well become more so.

This expands on the point:
www.the-pool.com/news-views/politics/2016/46/gaby-hinsliff-on-nigel-farage-theresa-may-and-donald-trump
If this was all a thinly veiled job-creation scheme, then it’s been a triumph for Farage, who could easily have dwindled into irrelevance after resigning as UKIP leader, but is now right back on our front pages. He can still win a propaganda battle with Downing Street pretty effortlessly. But these are only opening skirmishes in what will be a long war.

Ciaran Jenkins ‏@C4Ciaran
Two unrelated things: 1/ Millionaire Brexit donor plans "Drain the Swamp Party". 2/ Brexit may mean 30,000 more civil servants.

The trouble is the connection won't be made where it counts.

Worst still. It was avoidable as Ian Dunt points out:
Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Every detail of Brexit memo was raised by critics after the Leave vote. They were ignored as 'talking Britain down'. Lack of staff capacity, economic impact, absence of joined-up thinking, severe time problem. Every single aspect of memo. May ignored it.
www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/11/15/may-s-refusal-to-try-for-an-interim-brexit-deal-led-her-to-t

This is NOT an 'I told you so'. Its a 'get your act together and start listening'.

Re Theresa May's speech last night
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-some-company-bosses-believe-i-am-anti-business-a7417241.html

And The Times view:
Voters have turned against liberalism and we have to listen, May declares

The liberal consensus that dominated British and American politics for decades has lost public confidence, Theresa May declared last night as she delivered an uncompromising broadside against the political elite.

Future British and American governments must do much more to acknowledge that liberalism and globalisation had “downsides” as they reacted to the Brexit vote and the election of Donald Trump, she said.

The prime minister used her first foreign policy speech at the Lord Mayor’s banquet in Guildhall, in the City of London, to insist that she supported liberalism and globalisation, even though the public did not.

The speech, seems clumsy and not terribly well phrased (it also literally sent some in the room to sleep apparently)

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
Is Theresa May's speech was a defence of liberalism by acknowledging criticism .. or just an attack on it. Not sure.

www.ft.com/content/b26899a6-aa58-11e6-a0bb-97f42551dbf4
Liberal self-flagellation always assumes a bleak future
When voters act strangely, we want to believe we are living through a kink in history

Those of us who follow politics are suckers for the epic: when electorates do strange things, we want to believe we are living through a kink in history. When the world’s two most stable democracies vote for change, it must be the end of liberalism or the hollowing out of the middle class or something comparably grandiose at work. To blame it on particularities, such as the left’s saintly patience with mediocre leaders in recent years, is somehow unsatisfying.

Maybe this year will turn out to be a lasting twist in the world story from liberalism to non-liberalism. But the grounds for believing so amount to one close referendum and one even closer election. The first is yet to be implemented, or even defined, and the second, whose implications are as ambiguous as the views of Donald Trump, that big-government free-marketeer, that Keynesian Reaganite, is reversible in four years' time. Americans have just elected a man who wants to cut taxes and repeal financial regulations.

Meanwhile
Robert Peston ‏@Peston
@GeorgeOsborne tells @theresamay her priority must be our future relationship with EU rather than Trump.

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InformalRoman · 15/11/2016 11:18

Wonder if the "leaking" of the memo is the civil service starting to "take back control". An uprising of Sir Humphreys, now that would really be something.

jaws5 · 15/11/2016 11:19

Obama is far from done. He's not going anywhere. He might not be President but he still has power I like him even more...

howabout · 15/11/2016 11:20

"All the while, since 2008 the single biggest economic story across Britain and the US and other rich countries has been achingly slow growth and austerity for the masses, alongside state-subsidised riches for the very wealthiest".

I completely agree with all that is said and left unsaid in that Guardian article Informalroman. The wry smile comes when you try to consider what the writer would have the oppressed masses do other than vote Brexit / Trump or even Le Pen?

howabout · 15/11/2016 11:30

Got to laugh at the FT Red. Not sure how you describe tax cuts in conjunction with government sponsored investment spending if it is not a Keynesian response to economic stagnation?

George Osborne presumably fighting the rearguard action on behalf of the EU in hopes of getting some sort of "good cop" role in the negotiations.

In the absence of a JC New World Order I backed the Blonde Ambition ticket rather than TM but given her ability to muster all sides to deliver Brexit I am quite happy for her to take pot shots at BJ to strengthen her position while leaving him freer to be all things to all people or universally insulting to full diplomatic effect.

howabout · 15/11/2016 11:34

That is interesting Majik and chimes with what I was trying to say yesterday.

InformalRoman · 15/11/2016 11:38

"The wry smile comes when you try to consider what the writer would have the oppressed masses do other than vote Brexit / Trump or even Le Pen?"

In the UK's case, voting out the Tories would have been preferable to ditching the EU. Except, that with Labour in disarray and the Lib Dems still floundering in the back of beyond there isn't a viable alternative.

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2016 11:38

Justice Department
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mass-strike-prison-officers-sees-9260877#ICID=sharebar_twitter

Alan Travis ‏@alantravis40
Ministry of Justice seeking high court injunction on protest meetings by prison officers who are banned by law from taking industrial action

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
The MoJ wanting to sue protesting prisons officers tells you everything.

www.itv.com/news/story/2016-11-14/live-updates-jo-cox-murder-trial/
Jo Cox murder trial halted by prison strike action.

Can't be the only case either.

No Plan Memo
Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Most attempts to discredit the leaked "No Clue About Brexit" memorandum appear to be by reference to its provenance, and not to its content.

And The Times are sticking by it.

Beth Rigby ‏@BethRigby
Told the memo splashed in @thetimes was a "unsolicited document" from an accountancy firm. Told No 10 did not ask for it & it a pitch 4 bis

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
I don't know about you but I wouldn't pitch for business at a company by criticising the CEO...

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
No10 can't tell journalists they know who the source is --- and then also claim they know nothing about memo...

Oops.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
The entire Brexit process needs to rebooted, and started again on an open and collaborative basis.

May has made a false start.

Is this even possible with May at the helm?
Does this add weight to a vote of no confidence? May wouldn't quit I'm sure.

Shit going to hit the fan in a big way soon.

2017 looks bleak.

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Peregrina · 15/11/2016 11:40

Sorry to go back to my derailment - according to DS - the equipment being used couldn't cope with the geology. Plus there were cost overruns because they were a bunch of incompetents which is why he no longer works for them.

Back to Brexit proper. UKIP might take over, but apart from Farage, the rest of them are a bunch of idiots, who end up fighting among themselves. So they might get into Parliament, and be totally incompetent. Heseltine once picked up the Mace and swung it. Imagine that lot using it to clout each other with.

Farage himself, despite being an obnoxious racist bigot, is an effectively public speaker, and in that respect, TM could do with taking a few public speaking lessons as I believe Maggie did. Instead, she drones on in a monotone and sends people to sleep.

When they talk of 'liberal' what do they mean? All the free market stuff brought in by Thatcher and Reagan isn't my idea of liberal.

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2016 11:53

Press Association ‏@PA
#Breaking Thousands of London Underground staff, including drivers, vote for strikes over staffing, safety and industrial relations - RMT

So we are up to the prisons, trains, underground, with probably the doctors not far behind and who would bet again the teachers?

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InformalRoman · 15/11/2016 12:03

Thanks Peregrina - I did read that they at worst case they were having to visit installation points up to 12 times between initial survey and actual construction Confused.

Peregrina · 15/11/2016 12:05

Now if the strikes were happening under a Labour Govt we would never hear the last of it, about how Labour couldn't keep control. Under the Tories.....

@GeorgeOsborne tells @theresamay her priority must be our future relationship with EU rather than Trump.

Do I hear the sound of knives being sharpened? Osborne has as much experience of senior office as May, and has been booted out to the backbench, which truthfully is all May could have done at the time, but will be a dangerous foe. Add to the list, Nicky Morgan, and a few others who I can't think of right now.

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2016 12:30

So on the day the government look like they are making a fuck up over Brexit:

Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon
"It's time we were all more positive about Brexit" - John McDonnell

Confused

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
McDonnell is finally brave enough to come out as a Brexit supporter.
It's been obvious he was since he started talking this nonsense about 'access'. Today he is beginning to admit it.

This has some positives as well as the obvious negatives. But his timing and tact are fucking unbelievable.

Jack Blanchard @JackBlanchard
McDonnell asked how Lab can influence Brexit terms having committed to voting for A50. "It's a moral pressure we will be able to exert." Hmm

So there's no plan here either then.

Momentum ‏@PeoplesMomentum
So, when we say the Tories don't know what they're doing when it comes to #Brexit it's literally true. Utter chaos!

And your timing is crap too, Momentum.

Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE
John McDonnell defending Mark Carney: "The public servants who run the Bank are drawn from the very top of the global talent pool."
Just to repeat John McDonnell defending the BoE.
Well that's positive at least. I think.

a50
Relates to a speech made last week in Kuala Lumpar
Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Deputy President Supreme Court Lady Hale confirms all 11 Supreme Court justices will hear A50 case in Dec. First time.^

Lady Hale will be hearing that case - she states rather unequivocally "that referendum was not legally binding on Parliament"

"As is well known, the referendum on whether the United Kingdom should leave or remain in the European Union produced a majority of 51.8% in favour of leaving. But that referendum was not legally binding on Parliament. There is, of course, no doubt that, just as Parliament made the law which brought European Union law into the UK legal order after the UK Government had entered into the accession treaty, Parliament can unmake that law. The question is the process whereby we arrive at that result. This entails the constitutional division of responsibility and power between Government and Parliament"

Uh-oh. Supreme Court Dep President questions whether "a simple Act of PArliament" enough for Government to trigger A50....

"The issue is whether giving that notification falls within the prerogative powers of the Crown in the conduct of foreign relations or whether it falls fould of the rule that the prerogative cannot be used in such a way as to frustrate or substantially undermine an Act of the United Kingdom Parliament. The argument is that the European Communities Act 1972 grants rights to individuals and others which will automatically be lost if the Treaties cease to apply. Such a result, it is said, can only be achieved by an Act of Parliament. Another question is whether it would be enough for a simple Act of Parliament to authorise the government to give notice, or whether it would have to be a comprehensive replacement for the 1972 Act"

...might require "comprehensive replacement for 1972 Act" - i.e. The EEC Accession act .. so you would have to pass the Repeal Bill first???

Chaminda Jayanetti @1000cuts
@faisalislam Would the Great Repeal Bill count as a "comprehensive replacement"?

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Yes. Absolutely zero chance of passing that before March. Not even going to be introduced until after May.

[Cripes!]

[Constitutional crisis here in the making if turns out to be the case. Great Repeal Bill will struggle to pass with Henry VIII clauses. Note, its not part of manifesto so Lords can oppose more. Will require going through the Commons & Lords multiple times.]

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
... then Lady Hale balances that up with the opposite view but says "what has to be done is perhaps not so clear" re remedy, if Appeal falls

"The contrary argument is that the conduct of foreign affairs, including the making and unmaking of treaties with foreign powers, lies within the prerogative powers of the Crown (what you would call the executive power of the Federation. The EU Referendum Act 2015 neither expressly nor by implication required that further Parliamentary authority be given to begin the process of withdrawal. The basis on which the referendum was undertaken was that the Government would give effect to the result. Beginning the process would not change the law."

"Just before I left to come here, a unianimous Divisional Court held that the Secretary of State does not have power under royal prerogative to give notice to withdraw from the European Union. The court held that just as making a treaty does not change the law of the land, unmaking it cannot do so, but triggering article 50 will automatically have that effect. What has to be done instead is perhaps not so clear. But the case is destined for our Court, so I must say no more"

[So government could still win, but its looking more about constitutional issues rather than down to individual claimants]

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RedToothBrush · 15/11/2016 12:32

So if appeal fails, the government might not be able to notify the EU that we are leaving until AFTER Great Repeal Bill passed!

When the dickens will that be?! 2 years?

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