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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

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howabout · 14/11/2016 17:31

French MIL thinks it will be Sarkozy rather than Jupe?

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 17:51

The Thomas Mair Trial has started.
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jo-cox-murder-trial-accused-thomas-mair-googled-william-hague-and_uk_5829d226e4b09ac74c53355a?

I really would not fancy being on that jury with everything else going on at the moment.

Its set to last 3 weeks, so will finish 1st week in December.

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SwedishEdith · 14/11/2016 18:08

"Someone asked yesterday who the guy on the left in the group Banks/Farage/Trump photo was - according to The Guardian he's Gerry Gunster, who's a US polling strategist"

Thanks TBS, that was me and I saw that today. I only wish they'd also described Arron Banks as a citizen of Belize as well (because he is - I wonder why?). And I noticed that Steve Bannon worked for Goldman Sachs - so, phew, not part of the "elite" either.

The media were very quick to call Corbyn far left when he was elected leader (even C4 News) so I trust they will have no qualms whatsoever in calling this lot far right.

I've started reading Philip Roth's 'The Plot Against America' - I'm not sure it's going to make me feel better.

Peregrina · 14/11/2016 18:20

I think how "European" you feel may depend on where you are in the country and personal connections.

I live in the South East, so going to Contintal Europe is relatively easy for me. I have an other EU country daughter in law, German friends, Danish dentist, have lots of friends with sons/daughters in law from other EU states. By contrast I only have a couple of American friends and they are anglophiles. I have been to most countries in W Europe and have been to S America, Africa and Asia. I have not been to the USA, and have no strong desire to go there.

So I feel British first, European second and a World citizen third i.e. a citizen of nowhere according to TM. I don't even feel English first, because I grew up in Wales, even though I have lived in England a long time now.

TheBathroomSink · 14/11/2016 18:29

There's been more than a few US commentators pointing out on Twitter that the big papers have in fact not called them the far right!

In addition to Bannon, who is ex-GS, Trump also seems to have failed to notice that several of his transition team are precisely the kind of people he stated he would rid Washington of, with his #DrainTheSwamp hashtag (now handily appropriated by Banks):
Marc Short (now a senior adviser to the transition team) used to run Freedom Partners, which is the political fund of the Koch Brothers

Michael McKenna (an energy policy adviser) the president of the lobbying firm MWR Strategies. McKenna’s clients include Koch Companies Public Sector, a division of Koch Industries.

Michael Catanzaro (the head of Trump’s energy transition team) is a partner at the lobbying firm CGCN Group, and has been mentioned as a possible energy czar. Among his clients are Koch Industries and Devon Energy Corporation, a gas-and-oil company that has made a fortune from vertical drilling and hydraulic fracturing.

Myron Ebell (heads Trump’s transition team for the E.P.A.) is an outspoken climate-change skeptic and runs the energy-and-environmental program at the Competitive Enterprise Institute, an anti-regulatory Washington think tank that hides its sources of financial support but has been funded by fossil-fuel companies, including Exxon-Mobil and Koch Industries.

David Schnare (a member of the E.P.A. working group.), a self-described “free-market environmentalist” who has accused the E.P.A. of having “blood on its hands,” is the director of the Center for Energy and the Environment at the Thomas Jefferson Institute, part of a nationwide consortium of anti-government, pro-industry think tanks. He is also the general counsel at the Energy and Environment Legal Institute, which has received funding from coal companies.

Taken from one of the sections of this article

TheNorthRemembers · 14/11/2016 18:36

Swedish "The Plot Against America" will definitely not make you feel better.
Although Trump is more like the main character in Look Who's Back by Timur Vermes. In Vermes's book Hitler returns in like 2010 (it is not explained how he resurrects) and becomes the darling of the liberal media despite saying very un-PC things. Everyone (even the neo nazis) think that he is clearly a dressed-up clown, who does not have to be taken seriously. He says it like it is... In the end he becomes a Youtube star and enters politics.

I always wanted to watch the Man in the High Castle online, but I am not so sure any more. Is it too close to home now?

SwedishEdith · 14/11/2016 18:39

Oh, god. It's already uncomfortable and I'm only about 20 pages in. Too, too similar - spookily so as Roth wrote it in 2002.

amaravatti · 14/11/2016 19:01

www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/us/elections/to-our-readers-from-the-publish
What does this apology mean from NYT?

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 19:05

Man in The High Castle is worth watching even if the themes are similar. They are also different enough too.

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merrymouse · 14/11/2016 19:12

This is interesting re: how Breitbart works -

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11987814

I've seen quite a few posts referencing the Robert Byrd/KKK/Hilary (and presumably Obama) link on MN. However, atleast people who post on MN (assuming they aren't trolls) are choosing to visit a site where different opinions exist.

I suspect that many Trump supporters genuinely don't understand why Trump is seen as racist/more racist than any one else.

TheBathroomSink · 14/11/2016 19:19

amaravatti - at face value, it looks like they are apologising for calling it wrong, and being convinced Clinton would win. It may also be something of an apology for the way they covered the whole campaign.

Of course, the way it is written, it can be read either way - we should have been less in Clinton's favour, or alternatively, we should have taken Trump more seriously and treated him like any other candidate.

It really lets you read it how you want to, presumably so that everyone can claim it is intended for them!

merrymouse · 14/11/2016 19:36

m.dailykos.com/story/2016/11/14/1598951/-Trump-s-senior-White-House-advisor-says-in-radio-interview-that-liberal-women-are-a-bunch-of-dykes

The main problem with the UK's 'special relationship' with the US might be that only the UK seems to be aware that it exists.

However now the additional and more immediate problem is that a special relationship with these people sounds creepy and icky.

TheNorthRemembers · 14/11/2016 19:50

merrymouse Quite.

Red Thank you. I shall try to watch it when I finish Hunger Games.

BTW did you all notice how much Trump Tower resembles the Capitol in the Hunger Games? President Snow is so Trump as well.

NY Times page did not open for me, sorry.

I despair too much to say anything about Liam Fox.

TheBathroomSink · 14/11/2016 20:00

The NYT apology comes up if you google 'NYT apology', I couldn't find it any other way!

AutumnLeavesAgain · 14/11/2016 20:17

MotherOffourdragons I wish it was just banter. My son was told regularly by a "pal" from a middle class SNP supporting home that his dad was an English cunt. It taught me that 300 years of union sadly isn't enough for some humans and had an influence on my pessimistic belief that the eu as a political union was bound to fail.

amaravatti · 14/11/2016 20:43

Motheroffourdragons and AutumnLeavesAgain, sorry to hear of your bad experiences of whatever we should call the Scottish/ English identity politics.
I grew up in Glasgow, but was called a 'Sassenach' (English). It was confusing to a little child( still don't know what it really means, but it felt bad). I learnt a lot about Scottish/English history. Still friends with those Glaswegians, 50 years on!
By the way, the SNP movement did have sectarian issues, which were also a massive schism in Glasgow when I lived there, sure/hope it's changed a lot now. And here's another thought, how does Christian religious identification correlate with current political movements; probably not such a big deal in Britain, but it is, I think in America.

I take from my experience in Scotland, the Maya Angelou principle of gratitude. I learnt a bit of what it was like to be objectified by the land I was born in. It's been so useful. It's been a good lesson. But it takes a bit of processing, and that doesn't seem very fashionable these days.

amaravatti · 14/11/2016 20:45

Obama on now. www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcnews
Please don't go!

amaravatti · 14/11/2016 20:50

BBC have cut him off.
Listening on public service NY radio now;
also good to hear how real Americans are reacting to it all.
www.wnyc.org

amaravatti · 14/11/2016 20:54

He's just explained democracy, globalisation and 24hr media beautifully.
Talking about staffing new government, information flow.
'Good ideas don't matter if people don't hear them.'

amaravatti · 14/11/2016 21:02

'The people have spoken'
'That's how democracy works'
'When I won there were a number of people who didn't like me.'
'It takes a while to reconcile'
'Voting matters'

Wise and gracious

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 21:03

From WSJ:

During their private White House meeting on Thursday, Mr Obama walked his successor through the duties of running the country, and Mr Trump seemed surprised by the scope, said people familiar with the meeting. Trump aides were described by those people as unaware that the entire presidential staff working in the West Wing had to be replaced at the end of Mr Obama's term.

After meeting with Mr Trump, the only person to be elected president without having held a government or military position, Mr Obama realized the Republican needs more guidance. He plans to spend more time with his successor than presidents typically do, people familiar with the matter said.

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whatwouldrondo · 14/11/2016 21:16

Of course Trump did not have a plan, it is all part of the historical phenomenon we are living through ....

HesterThrale · 14/11/2016 21:30

I'd love to know whether Trump actually thought he had a chance, or if it's a bit of a shock to him.

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 21:33

John Iadarola ‏@johniadarola
If Trump selects John Bolton as his Secretary of State, that's a huge middle finger to the rest of the world and proof that wars are coming.

Ryan Grim ‏@ryangrim
Source says John Bolton is close to being named Secretary of State, Corker still a remote possibility, Gingrich is out

Confused
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amaravatti · 14/11/2016 21:35

www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-chicago-immigrant-sanctuary-city-met-1115-20161115-story.htm

Rahm Emmanuel has announced Chicago is sanctuary city for immigrants