The Brexit Arms (temporary till the licensee get here)

[BoredofBrexit]

Noise enforcement squad!
Where's the landlady? Surfer?
We've been advised of a a lock in and it's reported that the jukebox has been stuck playing Pulp - Common People - all night.

Informal - thank you for answering my question and explaining it clearly. 😊
One wouldn't get such a clear answer if one asked a politician!

Lol at InformalRoman's link

Widow, I'm of the opinion that any 'plan' should not be rushed into, should not be developed & implemented behind closed doors, and should be transparent with key areas robustly debated in parliament.

Hence, I am spectacularly unconcerned that A Great Plan is not suddenly about to be revealed as a foregone conclusion.

Would you prefer that the govt just released an un-debated & unscrutinised Plan, and began to implement it with immediate effect?
How odd that you should be so supportive of that, I thought Remainers were supposed to be the self-styled bastions of democracy.

Dapplegrey1 Fortunately lawyers can do the hard work of interpreting stuff - especially when they sniff opportunities.

Mango - thank you, your pictures really make me

So if there's no plan, how on earth could May announce end of March as trigger date? Of course everything needs to be scrutinised in parliament, but so far there isn't even anything to be scrutinised. What a shambles

Would you prefer that the govt just released an un-debated & unscrutinised Plan, and began to implement it with immediate effect?

the opposite of having no plan isn't having an undebated and unscrutinised plan which you implement with immediate effect, you know!

Because the trigger date is just that.

I'm just thinking that 'the plan' sound bite is the new 'big red bus' sound bite for the Remainers isn't it? One fixation goes and another one takes its place.

Bored, it's actually:

The Plan!

It works as a stand alone rallying point, in the same vein as:

Facts!
Lies!
Racist!
Bedfellows!
(and of course Big Red Bus!)

It's a very powerful weapon in the Remain! arsenal and as such it is folly to underestimate its potency....

Bored Nah, "the (there is no) plan" isn't new - you only had to look at Johnson and Gove's faces on June 24th to know that there never was "a plan"

Mango You've reminded me of one of my favourite jokes:

Q: What's big and red and stands in the corner?

A: A naughty bus.

Arf.

A Plan is a very quaint notion if you truly believe as Remoaners claim that the UK is an irrelevant little island about to be dictated to by the all conquering 27 while the rest of the World eggs them on.

If I wasn't a Brexiter in the first place then the sheer ridiculousness of all the clamouring for "A Plan" would be enough to make me one. [ grin]

There is no plan because the arrogant elite didn't think they'd need one.

Leavers had other plans.

The problem is a plan relates to law and how you repeal and replace it with British law.

Not having a plan, comes across the problem that legally you still can't just do (or not do) something because of the referendum vote. It still needs to be managed and be achievable under law.

Otherwise you undermine the rule of law, which doesn't just start and end with Brexit related things but also other issues.

You could then say, well I don't like this law for this reason, so I can just ignore it and its not enforceable. Which makes parliament irrelevant and is in effect mob rule.

A plan is therefore, not really being difficult. Just a recognition that the structures in our society prevent things from being done without accountability.

To be honest the whole thing about Brexit and why it happened comes back to a lack of accountability and transparency in the first place, which allowed measures to be taken and cause a) the financial crisis b) austerity c) politicians not listening to the electorate properly (as well as many other things prior to that; example PFI).

You don't fix those problems within society caused by poor accountability without accountability.

My whole take on the last 30 years has been a lack of accountability which has been protected and supported by certain groups in society making it even more difficult for those who don't have status (or education) to challenge this.

But yeah, I doubt that most of you will agree as its the idea of the plan, as a criticism of the Leave vote rather than seeing it as being a necessary building block of fixing problems for the future that's really become the focus. It comes back to lack of trust again.

Or to put more simply.

Remainers saying there is no plan is viewed almost like an insult to Leavers in the way it has been used and is an attack on their lack of intelligence. Its a personal attack.

Rather than it being viewed as a legitimate and useful way of going forward for everyone and its something everyone should be trying to construct and care about.

Leavers feel like they have to defend there being no plan as a result.

FWIW, I think its now past this point, and remainers need to be less confrontational on this issue, but leavers need to acknowledge there are legitimate reasons as to why a plan is something we should be pushing government towards achieving at this point in the process.

I think though, RTB, that as far as leavers are concerned 'the plan' is to exit the EU entirely, with anything that can be retained - single market etc - being an added bonus but not essential if too difficult to pull off.

Actually I do agree with you Red. I think a lot of the problems which were allowed to develop since the financial crisis were as a result of "coalition government" which resulted in back room deals and neutering the opposition and backbench MPs in Parliament.

Prior to the financial crisis there was a lack of Parliamentary scrutiny because the centre ground over which Left and Right were arguing had narrowed so much that there was little room for dissent. The received wisdom that the UK national government was impotent in the face of International capital and supranational economic powers reinforced the narrowing centre.

Everyone derided Gordon Brown's plan and his G20 efforts to prevent competitive deflation and austerity but perhaps if everyone had stuck to the script the UK and the US would not be talking about the need to address under investment and undertake fiscal expansion now. The actions of the Eurozone in response to this approach would likely have been very different too.

[A plan] as a legitimate and useful way of going forward for everyone and its something everyone should be trying to construct and care about.

As a leaver, this is exactly what I hope to see now.

I voted to Leave the EU in an advisory referendum; the majority of those who voted, voted to Leave, therefore the advice to parliament was that the majority wished to leave.

NOW, I expect to see all parties working together to respect the result of the referendum; transparently and with robust & honest debate finding a pathway that will lead to the best outcomes.

I expect to leave the EU - the how's and details of that, I expect to be dealt with by parliament - working together to create A Plan.

Leavers had other plans

Such as?

Mango you make it sound as though you think it's risible to care about these things but -
Facts! are generally held to be quite useful
Lies! generally considered quite a bad thing. Shame they got swallowed by so many.
Racist! Again, most would consider this to be quite bad.
Bedfellows! not really heard this.
(and of course Big Red Bus!) the big red bus that presented lies as facts, yeah? And we're somehow silly for thinking that was quite a bad thing?

I expect to leave the EU - the how's and details of that, I expect to be dealt with by parliament - working together to create A Plan.

Thank god for that.

I do think that what has being missing from politics for so long is 'a national interest' as such. Just everyone for themselves.

This is why I don't think popularist politics are the way to go. We've actually done that, and that's being the toxic thing and now we need to move beyond that. Direct referendums on everything certainly won't help. It just stops people from making difficult decisions in pursuit of votes. (This is why Farage and Banks aren't really any better than the rest. They are doing the same, just in a different way, without addressing what is under the surface)

We need to get rid of things being political footballs. I think 'experts' have suffered in this because there are 'good experts' and 'bad experts' (in other words ones that do their best to remove conflicts of interests, ideological, political and personal bias from what they do as much as possible - and to acknowledge where there might be weaknesses in this and those who have a poor understanding of this and try not highlight these weaknesses).

'Facts' are not as simple as just being 'facts'.

To illustrate the point, I'll use the example of the Cochrane Library Systemic Review in healthcare which goes through studies on similar issues to point out weaknesses in studies and compares their findings to see if they really have merit.

The result of not having proper assessment of data, in a similar fashion, is we have so much conflicting information and no idea of what has any quality and people lose trust in it.

The Daily Mail has kind of contributed to this, by publishing stories on every study going, with a political twist, rather than casting a critical eye over the study to decide whether its quite frankly bollocks or not. The net result is 'everything causes cancer' which has become a bit of a joke. They could have a role in helping pick out the crap stuff from the good stuff, but they don't look beyond the summary. We need to question stuff more.

I, personally, have become very frustrated with the state of things and do see a massive need for a push on this from someone. Who I'm not sure - the two names who are trying to push forward largely in health care on this are Ben Goldsmith and Margaret McCartney and they have faced a huge amount of opposition. But it goes beyond Health and into a lot of other areas of public life.

I dunno. Its just a poor understanding from people who HAVE been educated or a wilful ignoring of these principles in order to further personal agendas or corporate agendas. (I think this is really where a lot of resentment of experts comes from).

I would like to think that other people believed in this type of stuff, because if they do, then there is a possibility that at some point in the future that problems can actually be tackled for everyone rather than just for the winners of elections (or referendums).

Seek, you miss my point.

I was taking issue with the Catchy Sounbite! bandwagon frequented by many.

But if that bandwagon looks inviting, then don't let me stop you from hopping right onto it!

*Soundbite!

(Obvs! Autocorrect Fail...)

I was considering discussing a possible plan but now I've read Seek and her repeat of the 'sound bites'. I really can't be bothered.

time4 I saw the supermoon on Sunday night and it was HUGE.

The plan is to invoke Article 50 and leave, to regain sovereignty, be the final say on our own laws and gain control of our borders. We managed it for a very long time, other nations manage it very well. I'm happy with the way it's going and the current projected timescale. I didn't expect to wake up on the 25th June and have A50 invoked. Red I'd love to read your many, many, many long boring posts but they are too fucking long, too repetitive, full of pseudo facts and your opinions couched as facts. I really hope your not as patronising and unpleasant in rl. You repeatedly try to shut down any discussions Leavers want to have you have your own thread full of worshipful acolytes can you not just hide this one?