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Brexit

The Brexit Arms (temporary till the licensee get here)

990 replies

BoredofBrexit · 09/11/2016 07:27

Noise enforcement squad!
Where's the landlady? Surfer?
We've been advised of a a lock in and it's reported that the jukebox has been stuck playing Pulp - Common People - all night.

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21
Bearbehind · 12/11/2016 17:58

inkata, what exactly meets your requirements to discuss his views?

You might think I'm huff and bluster but I've told you exactly what I think of that video-

  • he doesn't actually support a Trump, he wants him to fail to prove a point which is a very dangerous precedent for the US and suicidal for the Uk and Brexit as we can't change our mind in 4 years.
  • him claiming people only post hate inciting things to get a reaction but they don't mean it is either bollocks or of absolutely no use if you want yo understand what they actually want

what more do you need to discuss?

Bearbehind · 12/11/2016 18:00

bored all of that post is ideological waffle though.

What do you hope will be achieved by giving people the right to freedom of speech, by not suppressing their hateful thoughts?

Boredofbrexit · 12/11/2016 18:01

If the left are pushing moderate liberal thinking leavers to the right, by their shaming and haranguing, I will only end up left of centre. But others will end up much further right than I will.

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Boredofbrexit · 12/11/2016 18:02

Bear, and your post is dismissive waffle.

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Boredofbrexit · 12/11/2016 18:03

What do you mean by 'giving people freedom of speech?' I didn't realise I'd moved to North Korea.

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Bearbehind · 12/11/2016 18:05

bored, I think it's you that needs to accept you can't 'chunk' people together.

I was, prior to this, a lifelong Tory voter. Doesn't fit with your leftie view does it?

Bearbehind · 12/11/2016 18:07

What do you mean by 'giving people freedom of speech?' I didn't realise I'd moved to North Korea.

Stop being so obtuse. You know full well I mean giving people the right to say whatever they like, no matter how hateful, because that's what the video we are talking about was discussing,

Boredofbrexit · 12/11/2016 18:07

Bear. I have not even thought of categorising you, more than is able by reading whatever words you choose to anonymously type on a screen.

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Boredofbrexit · 12/11/2016 18:09

And from dismissive to suppressive 'stop being....'Hmm

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Bearbehind · 12/11/2016 18:10

bored are you trying to make a point are do you just want to argue with me?

If you want to discuss this, can you tell us why allowing people to say whatever they please will be ultimately beneficial?

Inkanta · 12/11/2016 18:17

'he doesn't actually support a Trump, he wants him to fail to prove a point which is a very dangerous precedent for the US and suicidal for the Uk and Brexit as we can't change our mind in 4 years.'

I listened to the whole video and I get the impression he's a big Trump supporter. He called Trump 'daddy' and says he'd like to work for him.

So I don't get follow how you've come to this conclusion about 'dangerous' and 'suicidal'.

Bearbehind · 12/11/2016 18:21

He says he want the Republican Party to fail and never be elected again.

He says he wants Trump to have to say Daddy can't deliver the wall in Mexico.

I think this is demonstrating the problem here- you are only listening to what you want to hear.

Boredofbrexit · 12/11/2016 18:21

I haven't watched the video, sorry. I'll do that now and revert.
Hate speech that has the intention of inciting violence is unacceptable.

But how to define what is hate speech is difficult and risks suppressing a point of view just because it does not accord with ones own, or the accepted norm. Sometimes that needs to be challenged.

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Inkanta · 12/11/2016 18:32

'He says he want the Republican Party to fail and never be elected again.'

I felt his emphasis was on categorising Trump's unique politics, and that he didn't feel he was a classic Republican as such (or Democratic), but that he admired and supported Trump's uniqueness.

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2016 18:32

I think its important to perhaps acknowledge what he says (that's why I watched the whole thing) if only to dismiss it for what it is.

What I object to most is the idea that his ideas are as legitimate. He is free to make those comments, but its where he voices them, how they are framed as being valid and how he is held up as a leader because he has X amount of followers.

If what he is saying is having consequences to others then it needs to be stopped quit frankly, even if that is silencing someone.

I think the point about saying words like ni is all about context and ownership and there is a subtly though. It is one thing for a black man to say it to another black man. It is another for a white man to say to a black man even if they are friends. The white man has to have in effect, been almost 'invited' and given special privilege by a particular black man he has a relationship with, in order to do use it. It also still needs to be used carefully and in context with sensitivity to where you are and in the company you are.

What is lacking from political correctness is often this subtly.

These words are not words which are purely neutral. They have meaning which has several levels. There is a cultural and historical background to them. If you do choose to use them you have to understand that context.

What Milo Yiannopolous says is that it is unimportant to understand this. He says it is ok to be ignorant of why these words are powerful, and relate to power and status in society and have meanings which are to some are therefore really dehumanising and degrading. To say this is unimportant is simply not true. It spectacularly misses the point.

And in advocating that this is not important, he encourages their use in situations which are not appropriate and are damaging, and this is what has happened as a result. It is not for him as a white privileged male to make those judgements, as he does not fully appreciate how difficult they can be to deal with, if you face them on a daily basis. He makes the assumption that those who can't take it, are weak for not just sucking it up, rather than being aware that they might be vulnerable and caution is required.

That particular interview was with someone who was sympathetic. What he said was not challenged. This is in part why social media is just so dangerous when it comes to views like this. That's why that platform is not ok.

With regard to Rochdale, part of the problem was that the criminal were seen as Asian first and criminals second. It was the wrong context. Like Yiannopolous it should have been challenged. The fact it wasn't was the management failing, as they had the evidence there to back up what they were saying.

Political correctness is not at fault. What is at fault is this notion that political correctness is a black and white thing that is adhered to rather like a tick box exercise without this sense of context and without a thought process behind it. This tick box culture is something that is a cause of a great deal of problems within the Uk at present, particularly within health and social care (also see things like Concentrix's handling of benefits for another good example). This overly zealous political correctness is a symptom of that wider culture, rather than a cause of it. Again this is perhaps due to a dehumanising within society and lack of thought going into decision making.

What Yiannopolous misses most of all is a sense of responsibility for what he says and does. And in essence, this was the real failing at Rochdale. No one took responsibility, they all dodged it.

Libertarianism is all well and good in theory. I have quite a bit of sympathy for it, in principle but it only works if its responsible. Yiannopolous, is the example of why in practice it needs limitation if only through social pressure if not law. And this is where we are really hitting problems right now, because there isn't that social pressure within echo chambers so these forces are getting out of control and taking on a life of their own.

Personally I don't think that for the most part, legislating for it works either though. It tends to have the effect of falling under the 'rule of unintended consequences' whereby free speech of other things which are necessary and essential in a functioning society are also prohibited. Its something that does need to be thought about carefully and be very, very specific and narrow in scope if it is done.

Its tricky and there is no real answer, nor perhaps solution here. But that does not make political correctness as such, to blame. Its about education, context and responsibility. Basically, how accountable you are for you actions or what you say...

Boredofbrexit · 12/11/2016 18:37

Wine please bartender.

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RedToothBrush · 12/11/2016 18:40

Yes, I think I need one of those too!

Wine
Boredofbrexit · 12/11/2016 18:44

WineWine cheers then RTB

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winterisnigh · 12/11/2016 18:44

I am currently a UN ambassador for peace and sport and I have dedicated my life to serving and bringing resources to some of the most underserved black populations on the planet. I've also worked aggressively to try to improve race relations between law enforcement and black youth in the US through my #Stand2Protect Campaign

Mango thanks for that link it was a powerful read.

had loads of my comments deleted for saying something as inconsequential as name changes of other posters whilst advocating that people have the right to say what they please is outrageous

Bear I had to have your posts deleted because you got it into your head that for some bizarre reason I was another poster, whom it seemed had a history with other posters,

You were announcing this to all and sundry and then dragging me into a history the other poster had with me, accusing me of going for posters this other poster must have previously clashed with.

So no its not OK to keep going on about it, even after MNHQ have said they have name checked me - to show you I am who I say I am. Then you went on and on about something sinister - as you follow me from post to post.

This was not enough for you and I would like to know if you realise why your accusations needed to be deleted or do we need MNHQ involved to help explain to you?

winterisnigh · 12/11/2016 18:50

Talking of the video did anyone pick up on Mangos other link?

www.cnbc.com/2016/11/11/why-hillary-clinton-couldnt-rally-the-black-vote-commentary.html

NotDavidTennant · 12/11/2016 18:56

He reminds me of Katie Hopkins.

He's similar to Katie Hopkins in that they're both professional goady fuckers.

Boredofbrexit · 12/11/2016 18:57

I'd like to go back to Bears post 16.50.

I wonder if it's worth thinking about this point, reframe it:
Sometimes my child says she hates me. She does this to provoke, usually because she feels thwarted or over ruled. She doesn't mean she hates me though, she hates the way she feels because of the situation she finds herself in. I have to remind her of this and try and find a way of reasoning with her. But if we are both angry, this doesn't work and we both slam out.
Eventually though, no matter how the incident is dealt with, because there is mutual respect, it resolves itself.

Is it the mutual respect, and the human connection that makes this possible, and is this what is missing in society?

Bloody hell. Philosophical me. Must have been that Cherry Ameretto Bellini I had earlierSmile

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RedToothBrush · 12/11/2016 18:58

Oh a very serious note.

What the fuck IS IT with THAT haircut this year?

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2016 19:02

And Ed Balls. Salsa. Gangnam style.

Please tell me its so.

NotDavidTennant · 12/11/2016 19:06

Talking of the video did anyone pick up on Mangos other link?

Trump is projected to get about the same amount of the popular vote as Romney did in 2012, so I can well believe that the true story of the election was more about Clinton doing badly rather than Trump doing well.

Having said that I found this quote a bit tragic:

"I voted for President Donald Trump, with hopes that God frees his mind of the bias and division long enough to do great things for blacks and all the citizens of our great nation."

The triumph of hope over experience.