Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 10:10

May is off to India to pitch for more free trade.

What do India want in return?

More (easier) visas and an increase in students coming to the UK....
And they think trade will fall if we have less access / or barriers to the European market...
And the pound being low is damaging our chances of trade increasing...

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-india-trade-will-suffer-double-hit-business-chief-alwyn-didar-singh-a7399371.html

Visas proved an insurmountable barrier in EU-India negotiations for almost a decade as Delhi is reported to have asked for 50,000 working visas a year from the bloc.

I don't get why people have not worked out that movement of people is related to trade one way or another. If you are hell bent on reducing that then you will reduce trade. The two go hand in hand because its about increasing your relationship with somewhere. You can't have a relationship with someone whilst holding someone at arms length saying 'don't come too close' at the same time. "Oh I want to trade with you, but you can't come to my country to do that or assist in that trade". Do people realise how daft this sounds when you put it like this?

In terms of sovereignty, in a global world, you can not somehow reclaim it. Sovereignty can be placed with different bodies who regulate trade (whether it be the WTO or the EU) and you can choose which you prefer. But you can't take it back. Sovereignty is also about how much you are indebted to others and who owns what. If the pound goes down the UK can be owned by others more and we end up more indebted because the cost of servicing our debt goes up. We are also more at the mercy of lobbying - so sovereignty passes from parliament and into the hands of lobbying groups who have increasing power over parliament.

The whole central arguments for Brexit are essentially crack pot. It lacks a fundamental understanding of the very principles it has tried to 'improve'. This is why everything is creaking and groaning in our institutions and constitutions.

I get a lot of the concerns about 'the status quo' being somehow toxic and bad. There is a lot of truth within that. But you can't change that by opting out and or take back control when you don't understand what they mean in the first place. Its a total lack of understanding of what the problems are in the first place. That ALWAYS leads to poor decision making and poor outcomes in management.

Especially when you are harking back to British historical values and beliefs when you do so. At the expense of those British historical values and beliefs.

The criticism of judges somehow having a conflict of interest, in having a relationship with the EU is part of the same thing. As this explains:

James Lee @jamessflee
The implicit suggestion in press that it is inappropriate/suspicious for our top judges to have been involved in cross-Europe networks is misconceived. It underestimates the value of judicial dialogues & continued learning from each other, whether for own judging. Or crucially, in helping judges from Europe (whether ECJ or ECHR) understand English/British/common law traditions and principles. That in turn reduces risk of either Luxembourg or Strasbourg taking an unfavourable view of UK legal position or our judges' view of it. So it's odd for papers who get annoyed about adverse ECJ or ECHR decisions now to criticise judges for engaging in European dialogues

There ARE huge problems with the EU. Huge problems as the result of neo-liberalism. Huge problems due to austerity. Huge issues with accountability both here and in the EU. Public fears and concerns are based on flawed and inaccurate perceptions where benefits claims are larger than pensions, there are more immigrants than there are and the EU is responsible for things that the government actually has far more political influence over.

I just feel like banging my head against the wall.

The other bit of news I've heard on the tv this morning, is that the Commons Select Committee for the Department of Work and Pension has said that the triple lock on pensions must go as its unfair on young people and has caused problem and that pensions should be in line with the incomes of working people.

Sigh. There was a debate on MN about this pre-ref... Triple lock is going. We can not afford it. It was barely affordable pre-Brexit.

OP posts:
Mistigri · 06/11/2016 10:22

It is also significant I think that he has emphasised access to the single market as a red line, rather than freedom of movement. That suggests that freedom of movement is a secondary consideration for him

Apologies for being blunt, but this is bollocks. Every state in the world short of North Korea, Sudan and Zimbabwe has "access" to the single market. I'm typing this in a tablet that was mostly made in China and was sold to me by an American company; neither of these countries is in the single market, or even has a FTA with the EU; both nevertheless have "access" to the single market.

Wanting "access" is a meaningless statement of no consequence unless you are prepared to explain what you mean by access, and what you are prepared to give up in order to have that access.

It's dissimulation pure and simple.

GloriaGaynor · 06/11/2016 10:29

Mistigri I share your disappointment in Starmer.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 10:30

Corbyn did that thing where he says something that half the electorate will interpret one way and half will interpret the other, is probably a fair assessment in terms of FoM. By simply by not saying anything about it.

What he says about the single market is the thing that's shifted imo and its a pitch to the centre more than to the far left.

Which given the goings on over the Summer, is probably progress for the Labour Party.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 10:33

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37871681
News on the triple lock

OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 06/11/2016 10:38

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 10:39

Mirror Politics ‏@MirrorPolitics
Chris Patten saying @sajidjavid should be sacked for saying Article 50 ruling should be disregarded on #Peston - and not getting rule of law

First Mellor and now Chris Patten. That's two Conservative MPs who served under Thatcher basically saying that the current government is too right wing and authoritarian because of its attitude to the courts re: a50.

OP posts:
TheNorthRemembers · 06/11/2016 10:42

Thank you for analysing the Corbyn-statement. I did not notice that he only talks about access.

May is too scared to get rid of the triple lock. She only cares about the next election. That is her plan for Brexit: We'll do whatever it takes to stay in government, who cares about medium to long-term future.

GloriaGaynor · 06/11/2016 10:42

That Indy article on India was taken from this article in yesterday's Guardian.

I think the problem is that many people don't understand that to take part in the global trading system, you have to agree a close level of co-operation with other counties, and that includes their input into your laws and movement of people.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 10:43

In fairness to Starmer, he's trying to fight with his arms tied behind his back.

He can't make the big calls as that Corbyn's job, yet he is being expected to.

He's trying to appease the party as well as keep the peace. I wouldn't fancy the job. In that context I don't think he's doing as bad a job as you suggest. He's just in a position where he's on a hiding to nothing and trying to tread a fine line.

OP posts:
StripeyMonkey1 · 06/11/2016 10:54

I'd prefer something clearer too Mistigirl, but it is at least an indication of Labour's priorities.

We know similarly little in concrete terms about what the government is seeking from the EU. However, what we are hearing with regard to government priorities, suggests a willingness to accept a hard Brexit and many of us don't like that.

Use of language does matter and I know which rhetoric I prefer of the two. I also agree with Red that Labour is concerned to retain as wide an appeal as possible to its voters, and not to be too specific.

Importantly, it is the first time Corbyn has said that Labour might vote down article 50.

GloriaGaynor · 06/11/2016 11:02

They are being specific though. And they clearly in thrall to Labour leave voters, and less concerned with providing the 48% Remainers with democratic representation and real opposition.

tiggytape · 06/11/2016 11:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

usuallydormant · 06/11/2016 11:22

But surely at this point it doesn't really matter what Labour wants in relation to a50, or whether or not the conservatives agree. There is no negotiation or discussion with the EU until a50 is triggered. So May can agree to what she wants and Labour can start their own unicorn breeding programme but it doesn't mean jack until the EU members input. They are just talking in circles. So why not trigger A50 and then have meaningful parliamentary discussion about what might actually be possible? I would imagine the amount of trust and respect for the U.K. In Europe is rapidly depleting, not least as the faffing about A50 is impacting other economies.

tiggytape · 06/11/2016 11:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

usuallydormant · 06/11/2016 11:43

At this point I find it difficult to believe there is any way the U.K. can avoid leaving, even if legally it is possible.

But the terms of that departure have to be agreed by the EU. Basically, we know you want the same market access as before without any of the obligations like FOM. What the end balance can look like is only possible with EU input. And given that the U.K. government won't believe that the EU is committed to FOM no matter what way it is said and it looks like Labour are also ignoring this elephant, it seems to me that only the start of formal negotiations will concentrate minds on what will be acceptable to the EU.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 11:44

Just seen another narrative re a50 on another thread developing.

The UK is under the control of EU law, therefore existing UK law is all wrong and can be ignored as the EU referendum was a complete rejection of the principles, constitution and institutions of the EU.

Therefore the ruling on a50 can just be ignored anyway.

I guess this would also include all MPs and parliament if you want to take it to that's conclusion and only people who do the direct bidding as voted for in a binary referendum have any authority.

This is not at all worrying.

OP posts:
usuallydormant · 06/11/2016 11:48

I mean trigger in March as scheduled, not tomorrow...

lalalonglegs · 06/11/2016 11:49

I agree, usually, but the bluster about red lines prior to triggering A50 isn't so much about what the EU will find acceptable but about parties testing the water with the electorate and positioning themselves accordingly for an anticipated early election (which may or may not be achievable). It seems that there are vanishingly few MPs who actually want to think about what the future of the UK looks like as they can't see beyond the next opinion poll Sad.

After all, when the promises of unicorns and rainbows fail to materialise, the bullying EU can be blamed for our politicians' shortcomings.

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 12:01

Mirror Politics ‏@MirrorPolitics
Chris Patten saying @sajidjavid should be sacked for saying Article 50 ruling should be disregarded on #Peston - and not getting rule of law

The young people on this thread will have literally no idea what it feels like for a Labour voter from the Thatcher era to find, suddenly, that they would vote for Thatcher and Major cabinet ministers like Ken Clark and Chris Patten ahead of about 90% of our current crop of Labour MPs Shock.

Christ, I'm even starting to get nostalgic about that utter basted Osborne - who at least had the courage of his convictions.

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 12:02

Basted = bastard, thanks iPad ;)

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 12:11

www.eurointelligence.com/public/
An important decision, not a critical one

Assessment of the a50 decision and its implications. Has some points I've not seen elsewhere. It also says that Merkel seems to have moved on FoM for Swiss - and has made a point of saying the same is not true for Brexit (as if its going to be read that way).

OP posts:
lalalonglegs · 06/11/2016 12:14

I know, Misti - with even Thatcher herself being claimed by Tory Europhiles as a cheerleader for the EU, the only 1980s bogeyman we have left is Norman Tebbit.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 12:15

www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/80546/tom-watson-insists-labour-will-not-block-article-50

And Tom Watson contradicts Corbyn....

As you were. Labour still a car crash not listening to leader.

OP posts:
GloriaGaynor · 06/11/2016 12:15

I'd give Osborne a basting and not in a good way.

I totally agree about the old Tories - I'd have Ken Clark, Major, Patten back tomorrow. How has it come to this?

Swipe left for the next trending thread