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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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Thread gallery
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SapphireStrange · 10/11/2016 12:04

I just listened to that Farage radio piece, vomitous as it was.

Is T May still waiting for Trump's call? Has he called Nige in the meantime? Or did Nige mean we'd be at the front of Trump's queue in the sense of 'not counting Egypt, Ireland, Mexico, Israel, Turkey,...'?

whatwouldrondo · 10/11/2016 12:08

I don't know if this has been shared on here, I am away, but my attempts to find some good in all this (and thanks Red for the balance) is being somewhat thwarted by this being posted by many American friends including lifelong committed Republicans. Of course what they all have in common is that they are women. www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/an-american-tragedy-donald-trump?mbid=social_facebook

jaws5 · 10/11/2016 12:08

he's been held back by years of political correctness, but Brexit and Trump have set him free to say what he really thinks this is the great danger, so true...
This is becoming increasingly surreal...

TheBathroomSink · 10/11/2016 12:15

all these dreadful people who work hand in glove with Goldman Sachs

Steve Mnuchin
Trump's finance chairman, formerly of Goldman Sachs, is in line to possibly become Treasury secretary.

Indeed.

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 12:28

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f51a5838-a6bc-11e6-9a56-fbc08fa6e078

It’s undeniable that the Brexit vote and Donald Trump’s victory both confounded expectations and the opinion pollsters. They also triggered sharp movements in currencies. In each case, an uprising of the white, poor and unfashionable was followed immediately by a cry of disbelief from young metropolitans. And, yes, there was — once again — a beaming Nigel Farage.

But please, please can we kill the lazy idea that our EU decision and the US election are otherwise equivalent? To persist in doing so might look suspiciously like an attempt by some Remainers to blacken a good cause by unfair association. More importantly the link diminishes the extent to which Mr Trump’s success should deeply trouble people on both sides of the Brexit debate.

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
Remainers must accept many Brexiters had good motives. Brexiters must accept yesterday's cultural shock felt, to many Remainers, familiar.

yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results#/survey/70859850-a665-11e6-b2db-005056901c24/question/79440f30-a665-11e6-b2db-005056901c24/social
To what extent, if at all, do you think the election of Donald Trump as US President will affect your life?

UKIP voters don't think it will make much of a difference. Labour voters, followed by Lib Dem voters most likely to think it will make a big difference (SNP strangely in the middle and Scotland the region that thinks it least likely). And of course in keeping with the referendum vote and party lines, the young and ABCs think it will have more of an effect.

www.democraticaudit.com/2016/11/08/in-an-era-of-rising-populism-what-would-president-trump-mean-for-the-special-relationship/]]
Democratic Audit on the UK - US relationship and its challenges

Selective quoting below to sum up the article.

That leaves the British government facing three difficult questions.

First, does it remain close to the USA in the hope it can be a candid friend and by doing so help smooth what could be a highly unpredictable four (possibly eight) years of a Trump presidency?

Second, if close relations are not an option then the UK government could limit relations with the USA in the military and intelligence communities. By doing so they would strike at the core of the relationship in ways we have never seen before.

Finally, Trump would pose a dilemma for Britain’s overall strategic outlook. Britain’s vote to leave the EU has highlighted a desire by some in the UK to play an enhanced global role, a role that would in part depend on cooperating with the USA. Yet in Trump the UK would find itself stuck between a Trump rock and a Brexit hard place. Does this mean Britain would have to find a third way between the US and Europe?

Very important. Difficult decisions ahead I suspect one way or another.

Also in the news. Important. Relates to US and its dislike of the public sector and ultimately the NHS:
www.communitycare.co.uk/2016/11/09/virgin-care-set-run-social-work-service-unprecedented-deal/
Virgin Care set to run social work service in unprecedented deal
Bath and North East Somerset contract would mark first time core adult social work services run by for-profit firm

Private provider Virgin Care is set to run adult social work services as part of a £700m deal to reshape social care and community health support in Bath and North East Somerset.

Local council chiefs and NHS commissioners have met fierce opposition from anti-privatisation campaigners and trade unions over their decision to make Richard Branson’s firm their preferred provider for the minimum seven-year contract.

Approval for the plans will be sought from councillors and the clinical commissioning group’s board at public meetings on Thursday. If they go through, Virgin Care will run three statutory services – adult social care, continuing healthcare and children’s community health – from April 2017.

I don't think anyone in the main stream press has been reporting this. Seems to be a buried news story. The US obviously will see this as a potential whole new sector to invest in, given half the chance with a new trade deal. Its perhaps one of our most attractive prospects...

Oh and the A&E figures for Sept are out today. They are horrendous. I wonder how that will be spun.

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RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 12:35

The US constitution - unlike the EU constitution - has no provision for a state leaving. Just how to grow the Union.

The last time secession was tried, we got the US civil war

Both Trump and Clinton have called for unity. Why?

There are more concerns there than you think for civil war. Trump for all he's stoked that fire is now in a position where he has to deal with the consequences of that.

In calling for unity, he also gets someone to blame if things do kick off. He's offered them the olive branch, afterall. Its a threat to democracy and the state to disagree.

(Note here, Trump and the power to impose Marshall Law in the event of widespread problems at some point...)

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Peregrina · 10/11/2016 12:44

Both Houses are now Republican, so with Trump (or The Fart as I like to think of him) being a nominal Republican, any rioting and potential civil war will be theirs and theirs alone to deal with - they won't be able to pass the buck to the Democrats, although they will try their hardest to pass the buck elsewhere.

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 13:08

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/10/misogyny-us-election-voters?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
I've heard enough of the white male rage narrative

I think most people on both sides of the debate can see the racism in the Trump victory. Its overt and not hidden. I've actually been surprised that there has been so much condemnation for Trump here.

Yet there is still this denial of it being the same over here.

I do not think that all Leavers are racist. Far from it. The stuff about liberal v authoritarian thinking explains a lot of it and puts nationalism in various terms including what you might call 'good nationalism'.

But in order for it to be 'good nationalism' there also needs to be a proper acknowledgment of this

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?
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PattyPenguin · 10/11/2016 13:15

As we're back with Brexit...

There's a poll on the Metro website about the idea of individual associate membership of the EU.

metro.co.uk/2016/11/09/theres-a-plan-to-let-british-people-stay-as-eu-citizens-and-brexiteers-hate-it-6246810/

You have to vote to see the result so far, but I can't imagine that would be a problem for posters on here.

BoredofBrexit · 10/11/2016 13:17

Decent article
uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN1343FO

LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 13:18

power to impose Marshall Law

I hesitate to query what I suspect is a typo, but do you mean martial law ?

Or do I need to revise Marshall Aid (again) ?

LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 13:19

In calling for unity, he also gets someone to blame if things do kick off. He's offered them the olive branch, afterall. Its a threat to democracy and the state to disagree.

Vague shades of the Brexit stance that now it's the "will of the people" if anything goes wrong, it'll be the remainers fault ....

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 13:36

martial law yes!

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PattyPenguin · 10/11/2016 13:38

Want to be depressed / grateful you don't live in the US?

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/10/will-trump-destroy-america

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 13:50

Oh the other reason that Trump may not have called May...

...we want a deal.

We NEED a deal.

So what would this shark of a businessman do? Ring us straight away or make us sweat on it and slowly start to panic about whether our relationship will stay the same?

Hell he might not even ring us at all. Instead, let us wonder if we should in fact give HIM a call.

Wouldn't that affect the relationship we have and make us more likely to take a shitty deal, than favour the US and not our national interest, just for the mere point of getting a deal, and deal.

Afterall no deal with the US would be rather politically embarrassing for May wouldn't it?

And what if Farage mysterious steps in to lend a helping hand?

No phonecall starts to make me wonder if we are already sucked into the Trump Gameplan.

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vulpeculaveritas · 10/11/2016 13:56

So after all the papers saying Trump couldn't possibly win an election etc, is there a chance (even a slim one) that Corbyn could?

Theaspizzashop · 10/11/2016 14:02

no way vulpe. one of the reason trump won is theatrics. JC doesn't do theatrics. He does not appeal to the masses at all and his lack of nationalist sentiment is the opposite of the current zeitgeist.

LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 14:03

Oh the other reason that Trump may not have called May...

are we otherthinking this a tad ? She's a woman, and therefore second class anyway.

Peregrina · 10/11/2016 14:05

I have often wondered about Corbyn winning. People keep saying that the Labour votes in their old 'heartlands' are there for the taking by UKIP. We have little to go on except Local Elections, where the turnout is usually pretty dismal, but Labour have been doing reasonably well, and UKIP much less so, and increasingly UKIP appears to be only Farage.

Labour heartlands used to produce huge majorities for Labour, so there is some slack there, before they lose their seats. Corbyn could probably stay on as a figurehead while people like Keir Starmer start to do the heavy lifting in the party.

Peregrina · 10/11/2016 14:07

Has Trump called Germany yet? Another one of those pesky women in charge, and I would imagine, not one to his personal taste.

PattyPenguin · 10/11/2016 14:17

Frau Merkel sent Trump a very pointed message of congratulations:
“Germany and America are connected by values of democracy, freedom, and respect for the law and the dignity of man, independent of origin, skin colour, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or political views.

I offer the next President of the United States close cooperation on the basis of these values.

“The partnership with the United States is and remains a foundation of German foreign policy.”

Also, Trump is remarkably pally with Putin. That will not sit well with the German government.

Can't see Trump and Merkel being best mates under the circumstances.

LittlePickleHead · 10/11/2016 14:19

Oh fuckedy fuck. I love these threads they have been a lifeline for me since the referendum result. But all of yesterday I've been thinking "it's fine, it'lol all be fine..."

It's not is it? It's a fucking disaster 😞

I seriously wonder at times like this whether life would be happier in blissful ignorance, ignoring all news and watching X factor instead.

I know that's giving up but other than a vote at the next election and generally trying to be a good person, what the hell else can I do?

Feeling defeated today.

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 14:32

www.ecfr.eu/page/-/ECFR190_-_THE_EVERYDAY_AND_THE_EXISTENTIAL2.pdf
From European Council on Foreign Relations: The Everyday and the Existential. How Clinton and Trump Challenge Transatlantic relations

And while Trump often contradicts himself, as Thomas Wright of the Brookings Institute has demonstrated, a core consistency has animated his understanding of foreign policy for decades.6 There are three pillars of his foreign policy thinking from which he has never wavered. The first is the idea that America is getting a bad deal from its allies; the second is that the American approach to free trade has impoverished American workers and weakened the United States; and the third is that as a strong leader he can secure better deals with authoritarian strongmen than by working cooperatively with European allies.

Trump has consistently claimed that America is getting a raw deal from its allies and the global order in general. In 1987, he spent nearly $100,000 of his own money to take out a full-page ad in the New York Times just to make this point. America, the letter declared, has been stuck with the bill for global security for generations and gotten precious little in return. The US secures Europe and Japan, yet is forced to pay for the privilege. It liberated Kuwait and Iraq, yet gave the oil wealth there to others who stood by and watched American soldiers die in their defence. The 1951 US–Japan security treaty is, in Trump’s view, the perfect example of this type of raw deal because it obligates the United States to defend Japan, but does not obligate Japan to defend the United States.

This sense of a bad bargain often seems to make Trump angrier at America’s allies than at its enemies. America’s enemies strike hard deals, but at least you know where you stand with them. So he can imagine that Russian President Vladimir Putin is someone he “would get along with very well”. But America’s allies are like poor relatives, who play on your sympathies to borrow money and then spend all day frolicking in your swimming pool. So when it comes to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Obama’s most important interlocutor in Europe, all Trump sees is someone who is “sitting back” and “accepting all the oil and gas that they can get from Russia”, while the United States is “leading on Ukraine”.

Trump is set on securing a better deal from US allies. A better deal, in Trump’s version of the transatlantic alliance, involves European allies like Germany paying for the privilege of American protection. If they fail to meet their “obligations”, they will not be defended. More than this, Trump’s view is that allies should not need American protection at all. He will expect Europe to shoulder the burden for dealing with conflicts that are primarily European problems, such as the war in Ukraine and the refugee crisis.

What are we prepared to give up in order to get a 'better deal' with the US? What have we got to offer?

And in doing so, where does this leave our relationship with the EU?

The second pillar of Trump’s foreign policy is that free trade deals have hurt America. Trump’s views on trade can also be traced back to the 1980s and the debates over US-Japanese trade. In his view, American elites, in an effort to woo allies away from the Soviet Union, sacrificed the interests of the American economy and American workers to foreign interests. With the Cold War long over, this habit of mind is no longer relevant, if it ever was, and the United States can now pursue better trade and investment deals that put its own economic interests ahead of the global ambitions of its cosmopolitan elites. According to Trump, “Americanism, not globalism, will be our credo"

It is important to note, however, that Trump does not believe that trade is inherently bad for the American economy. Rather, he believes that the practice of negotiating multinational trade deals has disadvantaged America’s economy. “No longer will we enter into these massive deals, with many countries, that are thousands of pages long, and which no one from our country even reads or understands … Instead, I will make individual deals with individual countries.” In so doing, he seems to believe that, in bilateral negotiations, he could leverage the size of the American market and his own negotiating skills to obtain a better deal for the US.

What economic rather than political benefit are we to the US? A free trade deal is what we want. Is it what we are likely to get? We will have much less leverage than the EU. The EU are unlikely to get a deal but then do they need one? It is in the US interests to break up the EU in order to force bilateral deals where they can get better deals.

The resonance of Trump’s “America First” message derives in part from the blessings of America’s geography and its historical myth of self-reliance. Trump can credibly say such things because the United States has options, in the short-term anyway, to insulate itself from the troubles of the world and even to reduce its economic reliance on global trade.

The EU [including the UK it should be noted] has no such option — its geography means that it cannot insulate itself from the troubles of Eastern Europe or the Middle East for long; its economic structure means that it has an even greater interest in an effective global trading system than the United States. This fundamental distinction in the situations of the United States and the member states of the European Union means that there is a limit to the extent that Europe can rely on the United States for its security and prosperity.

We are kind of screwed.
Or will be screwed.

Which do you fancy?

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howabout · 10/11/2016 14:33

Been away from the thread for a while and just popped back. The UK Brexit analysis by ethnicity is more than a bit misleading. I read it because I was interested in how they could possibly have found the data to analyse. The UK does not record voting by ethnicity. It is no surprise that areas with high levels of ethnic minorities voted remain. Ethnic minorities are overwhelmingly concentrated in inner city areas which by and large voted Remain. Correlation is not causation. The other element of the report was extrapolating a very small sample of polling data - and we know the reservations about the polling.

The far more interesting factual information on this aspect of Brexit is that Leicester city with a 50+% ethnic minority population only voted Remain by 51%. This is in stark contrast with most other inner cities which were far less ethnically diverse but voted Remain.

SNP mixed feelings on Trump are understandable. The golf courses and hotels are generally being viewed as good for their local areas and because of all the political wrangling to approve the deals Scots have far more actual first hand knowledge of dealing with Trump. I think AS's comments are fairly reflective of the mainstream view beyond the political rhetoric.

howabout · 10/11/2016 14:35

Sorry - posted before proofing. Most inner cities I think I am correct in saying were more like 70+% Remain.

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