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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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merrymouse · 10/11/2016 09:10

I think you can see my thought process on this thread...

"No really, it will all be fine - shit!!!!".

Apparently though, recreational use of marijuana had been legalised in California - potentially a growth industry for many reasons!

merrymouse · 10/11/2016 09:12

Also, I've referred to this on another thread but Leicester City - Brexit. Chicago Cubs - Trump. Are there any other rank outsider sports teams that we should be keeping an eye on?

usuallydormant · 10/11/2016 09:22

Ireland just won their first rugby first match against the all Blacks in 110 years...it's an all Ireland team. Does that mean a soft brexit is on the cards Wink

Mistigri · 10/11/2016 10:06

Fair enough, but he would still have to do that in an America that, outside his core supporters, seems to be at best warey of him and at worst, absolutely opposed to him.

I share your modest optimism, but if you don't know the story, it's worth going to read the Cuccinelli/ Mann story. Politically inspired prosecutions are a real issue in a politicised legal system.

We'll know to start building the bunkers if Clinton is prosecuted or (worse) leaves America.

Peregrina · 10/11/2016 10:21

Think back only 60-65 years ago to see how people were persecuted under McCarthyism in America.

LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 10:55

Apparently though, recreational use of marijuana had been legalised in California - potentially a growth industry for many reasons!

with the caveat "it's Trump", my US based (and since he was last in the UK newly naturalised US citizen - kept that quiet) DBro commented that a lot of more right wing republicans could be in for a shock. DJT has some odd views - he's certainly been very vocal that the War on Drugs is a waste of money. I suspect DJT prefers profit over principle Hmm

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 10:58

James Landale ‏@BBCJLandale
Special relationship? Trump yet to call PMTM. But has spoken to leaders of Egypt Ireland Mexico Israel Turkey India Japan Australia & SK

Are we at the back of the queue? Why hasn't he spoken to May? Something that troubles me in this mix is Farage. Is it possible that Trump considers talking to him as talking to the UK, and somehow May is almost a bit of a sock puppet?

I think there are a lot of people about to get a large shock.

Trump has no intention of going through with a lot of what he says I suspect. He thinks Republican voters are thick and will vote for anything as long as you say something they like. Once in the job he thinks he will be free to do what he wants, and if he doesn't get he will bully.

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RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 11:01

Btw, Rachel Johnson said this last night on The Last Leg about Trump. I find it a compelling idea.

Jack Shute ‏@jackshute
Best analysis heard tonight: "The establishment took him literally but not seriously, while his fans took him seriously, but not literally"

That said I do think there were a fair number of his supporters who took the racism seriously.

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SapphireStrange · 10/11/2016 11:08

Something that troubles me in this mix is Farage. Is it possible that Trump considers talking to him as talking to the UK, and somehow May is almost a bit of a sock puppet?

Yes. Has crossed my mind too.

LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 11:14

For some reason I remember that Czechoslovakia (as was) wanted Frank Zappa as cultural ambassador ...

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 11:19

UKIP are pushing for him to be UK ambassador to the US.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/10/calexit-californians-campaign-to-leave-the-united-states-after-t/
Calexit.
If Trump doesn't pursue a more liberal agenda than promised, expect to see a lot more about this. I think it will gather steam, rather like ideas of Scottish independence.

To be honest I think the US should really be at least three countries as there are such divides and there is much to be said for the idea.

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LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 11:25

If Trump doesn't pursue a more liberal agenda than promised, expect to see a lot more about this. I think it will gather steam, rather like ideas of Scottish independence.

Given Trumps constant referrals to his Scots ancestry, what's his take on Scottish independence ?

The US constitution - unlike the EU constitution - has no provision for a state leaving. Just how to grow the Union.

The last time secession was tried, we got the US civil war.

CurrerBell · 10/11/2016 11:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CurrerBell · 10/11/2016 11:35

Argh, I did not mean that to post so soon... I meant to say:

It's not just angry white men, who went for Trump:

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/10/white-women-donald-trump-victory

53% of white women voted for Trump. 'The strong support for Trump among white women suggests that many of them, if not “overtly racist”, simply “don’t think racism is a big deal”, said Mikki Kendall, a feminist cultural critic.'

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 11:41

USA Today are suggesting the following for Trump's Cabinet. If you think our lot our bad, check this out:

Rudy Giuliani
The ex-New York City mayor became one of Trump's highest-profile surrogates. The former prosecutor could now be in line for attorney general. Also suggested he might get Homeland Security.

Newt Gingrich
The ex-House speaker became a top adviser and television spokespersonfor Trump during the campaign and was even among the real estate mogul's finalists for running mate. He is said to be interested in becoming secretary of State.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/newt-gingrich-secretary-of-state-donald-trump-cabinet-republican-quotes-career-a7134871.html
Stuff Newt has said

Bob Corker
The chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee could also be a possibility to lead the State Department.

Ben Carson
A onetime Trumprival, Carson emerged as one of Trump's most steadfast surrogates. The renowned physician would be an obvious candidate to be surgeon general.

Has vowed to repeal Obamacare

Mike Flynn
The retired general emerged as Trump'smost visible military adviser. He could be in line for Defense secretary or some other national security position.

Jeff Sessions
During the primary campaign, Sessionsbecame the first sitting member of the U.S. Senate to endorse Trump's campaign. Now, the Alabama senator could be another possibility to lead the Pentagon or Attorney General.

Reince Priebus
The chairman of the Republican National Committee —which ran the Trump campaign's get-out-the-vote operation — could wind up as Trump's White House chief of staff.

Steve Mnuchin
Trump's finance chairman, formerly of Goldman Sachs,is in line to possibly become Treasury secretary.

Jack Welch
Former CEO of General Electric also tipped for the Treasury position.

Chris Christie
Though shadowed by the recent Bridgegate trial, the New Jersey governor has been a fixture at Trump's side since endorsing him in February and will likely have his eye on a spot in the new administration at the Justice Department or in the White House.

Steve Bannon
The Breitbart News executive became Trump's campaign CEO in August. He could be in line for a spot as a White House adviser.

Mike Pence
While his job is already known—vice president—the Indiana governor and former congressman is expected to play a large role in the Trump administration as a partner to the new president, who lacks any experience serving in government.

Mike Pence who sees it his mission to overturn Roe v Wade and advocates Gay Conversion Therapy.

Harold Hamm
Oil and gas tycoon is on most lists of possible energy secretaries, a choice that would be consistent with Mr Trump’s promise to “unleash” America’s domestic oil industry.

Sarah Palin
The 2008 Republican vice presidential candidate and early Trump supporter, is also being mentioned either for the energy department or the Department of the Interior.

John Bolton
The abrasive, ultra-conservative former US ambassador to the United Nations and senior State official under George WBush has been suggested as Secretary of State. Mr Trump himself once said he was “seriously thinking” about choosing Mr Bolton forthe job.

Stephen Hadley
National security adviser for George W. Bush, Mr Hadley is about the only member of the traditional Republican foreign policy establishment who hasn’t come out against Mr Trump. Quiet and a fixer by nature, he is viewed as a possible bridge between the disaffected grandees and the new people coming in so might have a role

Donald Jr
Mr Trump’s son also tipped to possibly in the mix

www.buzzfeed.com/johnstanton/secretary-of-education-ben-carson-heres-a-list-potential-tru?utm_term=.ri6w6xXlg#.bhbEQVpom
Another list of possibles here from Buzzfeed

By UK standards this lot make May's Cabinet look like Corbynites. It remains to be seen how we are going to deal with them in all honesty. Even Farage has said that Trump's comment have made him uncomfortable and cringe at times.

Oh and if Farage does get a role, its not cos May wants it. Its been imposed by Trump. And that's another bit of our sovereignty gone and we are on the way to becoming the 51st state. (I was not joking about it being a real possibility yesterday by the way. In some ways it might prove a nice way to pave the way for a Farage backlash...)

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LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 11:45

One depressing trend is how readily [some] women seem to be to piss away decades of advancement in the belief they are "taking their country back". It's had to see women being in anything but a worse position in 10 years time, rather than a better position. Misogynists everywhere must be feeling smug right now.

LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 11:49

Oh and if Farage does get a role, its not cos May wants it. Its been imposed by Trump

And the rest of the cabinet supinely agree ? It would confirm the UK as a laughing stock.

Presumably Farage would pay the US embassy congestion charge bill ?

PattyPenguin · 10/11/2016 11:55

I wouldn't think Farage would pay the US embassy congestion charge bill. The congestion charge is Green Nonsense, after all.

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 11:55

I bet he wouldn't quit his job as MEP too. Just continue to take the money...

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Peregrina · 10/11/2016 11:58

Some people have always wanted us to be the 51st State and would happily ditch the 'Take back Control' mantra for it. I thought Ambassadors were usually from the Foreign Office - not jumped up arseholes who can't hold down a proper job?

Can't see Farage really wanting that any sort of job anyway.

NotDavidTennant · 10/11/2016 11:58

Ambassadors are not allowed to express political views so there's no way someone political like Farage would be appointed to the role, and there's no way he would take a role like that as it would mean gagging himself. More likely he will want to position himself as some kind of semi-official 'adviser'.

LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 11:58

Are there precedents for UK citizens to become ambassadors for foreign powers ? Or would he have to renounce his UK citizenship ?

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 12:01

Nick Cohen has been asking on twitter for people in the UK who will try and normalise Trump and says we should be wary of it. So far these two articles have popped up (with a lot of criticism of Simon Jenkins in general)

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/10/donald-trump-will-not-go-unchallenged
Simon Jenkins comment

capx.co/why-trump-will-be-good-for-america-and-for-britain/

edition.cnn.com/2016/11/09/opinions/liberals-chill-out-about-trump-victory-stanley/index.html

Meanwhile, Farage is quoted as saying on TalkRadio:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/10/nigel-farage-jokes-about-trumps-alleged-sexual-assaults?CMP=twt_gu
“I’m the catalyst for the downfall of the Blairites, the Clintonites, the Bushites, and all these dreadful people who work hand in glove with Goldman Sachs and everybody else, have made themselves rich, and ruined our countries,” Farage replied. “I couldn’t be happier.”

Farage continued: “That Obama creature – loathsome individual – he couldn’t stand our country. He said we’d be at the back of the queue, didn’t he?”

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NotDavidTennant · 10/11/2016 12:02

And on Clinton, as long as she shuts up and goes away they're unlikely to go after her. The "lock her up" chants were just campaign rhetoric, I'm sure in reality Trump doesn't give a flying fudge about her emails.

BoredofBrexit · 10/11/2016 12:04

Thinking of Assange today.

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