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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 14:38

So after all the papers saying Trump couldn't possibly win an election etc, is there a chance (even a slim one) that Corbyn could?

Not a cat in hells one.

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NotDavidTennant · 10/11/2016 14:38

In many respects, on the political spectrum from authoritarian nationalist to liberal globalist, Corbyn and the Momentum crowd are even further towards the liberal globalist end of the scale than the mainstream. That's why their brand of anti-establishment politics can't get any traction.

NotDavidTennant · 10/11/2016 14:39

In many respects, on the political spectrum from authoritarian nationalist to liberal globalist, Corbyn and the Momentum crowd are even further towards the liberal globalist end of the scale than the mainstream. That's why their brand of anti-establishment politics can't get any traction.

vulpeculaveritas · 10/11/2016 14:53

On the Leicester thing Howabout, could that be because Priti Patel told Asian communities that if Brexit happened then they would see restrictions on immigration from India and other countries lowered?

The British Curry association certainly felt that they would be able to bring in more chefs for example.

BoredofBrexit · 10/11/2016 14:59

Well RTB - and no doubt I'll need to change my username after this because it's all personal opinion an apropos of bugger all, I'm just putting it out there but I know what's coming is the approbation and the I can't believe you think that and evidence please - but If we come out of the EU - and by that I mean SM, complete disconnect, perhaps hastened by the EU losing patience over this a50 thing and the UK being forced to walk away with absolutely no deal- then there is no dilemma. But I'd go a step further to ponder more on what these policies will mean for the EU, and more generally what his election means for the EU. I could see there being some shifts in EU policy which might render Brexit unnecessary. The NATO issue needs to be addressed and defence/security - UK has strength in these areas and Europe relies on our intelligence. If US withdraw protection and want Europe to be self sufficient, do you think the UK will be willing to send troops to join a proposed EU army to fight against a Russian invasion in Ukraine? Or would we prefer to be separate to Europe and maintain the 'special relationship' with US?
Interesting times but I can't say I didn't see it coming.

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 15:14

I could see there being some shifts in EU policy which might render Brexit unnecessary.

This is interesting. What do you see those are exactly? I also think its possible in theory that there may be policy shifts that make EU exit just stupid stubborness. However would this be politically acceptable? Would you accept it? And how do you then overturn this idea of 'the will of the people'? This is why I say that constant discussion over the idea of Brexit, is important (as is finding out where a50 is reversible - and its notable that the government refuse to do this even though there are compelling reasons to do so).

Which do you favour btw? Closer ties to the EU or US?

Sarah Kendzior
Verified account
‏@sarahkendzior
Sarah Kendzior Retweeted Billy Polcha
Trump has literally said that an economic collapse and riots is what's needed to fix America. See 2014 Fox interview. I posted repeatedly.

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RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 15:31

theintercept.com/2016/11/09/in-a-black-precinct-in-georgia-simply-finding-the-polling-place-was-a-challenge/
In a Black Precinct in Georgia, Simply Finding the Polling Place Was a Challenge

Some of the obstacles to voting in this years election.

This makes for sobering reading/watching:

Sarah Kendzior ‏@sarahkendzior
Do not dismiss prospect of mass persecution and violence against ethnic groups as implausible or hysterical. You dismissed Trump's rise too.

Sarah Kendzior ‏@sarahkendzior
Those claiming "no one predicted this" just mean that those of us who did heartland people and non-white people are considered no one.
The reason I stress my accuracy is because of refusal of many to acknowledge what's coming: financial collapse and mass ethnic persecution.
Priority right now should be protecting the rights and safety of most vulnerable US residents: immigrants, non-whites. There will be blood.

  1. Two things to research to understand Trump. One is rise of authoritarian states and violent populism broadly. Recent and in history.
  2. The other is sanctioned state brutality in the US: toward Native Americans, blacks, others. White mob violence. It HAS happened here.
  3. Apply knowledge of foreign authoritarianism to long history of sanctioned persecution in US and you will see where we are headed.
  4. Add to this celebrity worship and media which historically, and today, plays down white supremacist violence and excuses powerful men
  5. You'll see two things happen. 1st: "normalization" of Pres Trump by media and elites. Fight it. 2nd: resulting violence used for ratings
  6. National media does not care if non-whites in heartland die except ratings. See: Kansas plot ignored, Ferguson treated like Hunger Games
  7. Whites in heartland were briefly object of fascination as victims, but both actual economic despair and mob violence will be ignored now
  8. In other states in similar contexts, mass violence arose. Look out for each other. Those who should be protecting vulnerable are failing.

Sarah Kendzior ‏@sarahkendzior

  1. Trump's rule will likely cause US and global economic collapse. When that happens, fans expecting return of good jobs will be enraged
  2. Trump will blame economic misery not on himself but on his usual targets: immigrants and minorities. Ethnic cleansing will accelerate.
  3. Trump wants economic collapse and riots. He's said so openly many times. Here is excerpt from 2014 interview.

Consider this excerpt from an explosive February 2014 interview on Fox News:

“You know what solves it?” he said of America’s sorry state. “When the economy crashes, when the country goes to total hell and everything is a disaster. Then you’ll have a [chuckles], you know, you’ll have riots to go back to where we used to be when we were great.”

qz.com/751320/donald-trump-and-his-followers-could-destroy-america-even-if-he-loses/ which links to original video of Trump

  1. Trump's openly apocalyptic goals are often stated in conjunction with his praise of Russia. Watch this interview:
video.foxnews.com/v/3179604851001/?#sp=show-clips
  1. I lost track of how many times I've asked people to watch that Fox clip. This is who you elected. Ran for office to destroy the country.

Do I go that far?

Its more difficult to argue against than to not agree tbh

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BoredofBrexit · 10/11/2016 15:36

RTB.

In my opinion these are the shifts that I think would make the parking of brexit palatable; they do not particularly reflect my personal views.

EU shifts - some restructuring of the Commission with more accountability and transparency. They can lead a group of equals but they shouldn't be above their members.
The EU I think will move to control their own borders with non EU countries. New members could obtain free movement rights over time.
UK should be allowed some form of control over EU immigration, possibly tied to employment.
A workable separation between EU and UK law - I am sure this exists but it is not my area, and in fact I think its the lack of clarity that creates problems. The a50 situation does nothing to reassure the public that 'their' law is not under attack. Baseless in fact, but perception matters.

I would consider any proposals for change. I hope it comes.

I'd prefer to be allied - probably - with Europe but I'd rather there was a looser arrangement regarding our membership of the EU.

The EU regard a50 as reversible and that is worth bearing in mind. The UK know the EUs opinion too so a lot of discussion around this is semantics.

BoredofBrexit · 10/11/2016 15:40

I disagree with the Kendzior piece though.
Now, I must go. Day off today and spent it prattling on mums net.

vulpeculaveritas · 10/11/2016 15:43

Just a little thing Bored: ~
" New members could obtain free movement rights over time. "

Which is what happened in most other countries, the UK pushed for the Eastern European countries to join (both governments throughout the 90s did this, and then chose not to have staggered restrictions on the EU8.

So yet again, it isn't that we weren't allowed to, we chose not to.

Your point about the laws is interesting, we would be required to enact laws that make us able to trade with the WTO is UK law wasn't of a sufficient standard. The A50 situation is British law being applied.

Perception does indeed matter, but the problem is that many perceptions are inaccurate in this situation, challenging inaccurate perceptions gets you abused as being elitist or out of touch with the people. So what is there to do? You aren't allowed to try to change these perceptions because that is elitist, so do we just have to agree?

RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 15:56

time.com/money/4564190/trump-trade-war-tariffs/?xid=time_socialflow_twitter

The US version of 'Hard Brexit'.

Note, he has unlike May, the power to do. And to do immediately.
May has to go through the process of at least some degree of scrutiny and this is where she is struggling.

You'll again note that the hardest brexiteers are the ones who most favour triggering a50 NOW (and I'm sure some would go even further - like Farage himself - and would just rip it up without any thought to getting a deal at all, or even the law).

We could well get the chance to see how well 'Hard Brexit' goes then - without having to do it ourselves. If in March, Trump has indeed done this, and a50 is still triggered... winces

Or course, I'm sure advocates of hard brexit will spin it differently, but its the same thing.

Gove certainly has spoken repeatedly about the need to tear everything to the ground in order to rebuild some sort of new economic and social order (and noted that the last time was after WWII). Its really not dissimilar.

Once again, this is why scrutiny is important for Brexit.

Chris Ship ‏@chrisshipitv
Trump to Theresa May: the UK is a ‘very, very special place for me and for our country’.

Joe Murphy ‏@JoeMurphyLondon
I gather President-elect invited Mrs May to visit as soon as possible - and sd it would be a great honour to welcome her to Washington

Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband
Bad news: World screwed by election of racist misogynist. Good news: our PM gets early visit....

Can anyone make me feel any better? I'm struggling today. Even if I take a 'least worst' assessment of the possible outcomes.

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RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 16:00

BoredofBrexit Thu 10-Nov-16 15:40:36
I disagree with the Kendzior piece though.

Its the very extreme outcome. Not everyone will.

Still worth listening to as it represents fears that need to be reassured and proved incorrect by Trump.

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RedToothBrush · 10/11/2016 16:17

www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/nov/10/sergio-perez-hawkers-mexicans-trump-f1?CMP=twt_gu

A furious Sergio Pérez dumped one of his personal sponsors after they published a tweet mocking Mexicans in the wake of Donald Trump’s US presidential election victory.

Trump has promised to build a wall along the border between the US and Mexico, and following his electoral triumph over Hillary Clinton, Hawkers sent out a tweet encouraging Mexicans to buy its sunglasses.

“Mexicans, put on these glasses so they can’t see your crying eyes tomorrow when building the wall,” Hawkers tweeted on Wednesday.

The ill-advised message was swiftly removed, and in subsequent tweets Hawkers stressed that the comment was meant in jest. But Pérez did not see the funny side, and instantly moved to cut ties with the sponsor.

Pérez, 26, also claimed that the company would have to halt production of 20,000 limited edition sunglasses bearing his name.

“When I read the comment I didn’t find it funny at all,” Pérez said. “I have decided to split with the brand because I am not in favour at all of the comment.

“They are very sorry and I am very sorry, too. I know the owners and they have done incredibly well and the relationship was going to be very successful. But my country and people come first and I want to support them and won’t let anyone make fun of my country.”

Woah.

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merrymouse · 10/11/2016 16:18

So after all the papers saying Trump couldn't possibly win an election etc, is there a chance (even a slim one) that Corbyn could?

I think the key thing that has been difficult to estimate in Brexit and the US election is populist movements.

However, unlike Trump and Farage, I don't think Corbyn is interested in a populist message. He pretty much says what he says and has been saying for the past 30 years.

He certainly seems to have enjoyed leading the Labour Party, but really hasn't shown much interest in anybody else.

Peregrina · 10/11/2016 16:20

Gove certainly has spoken repeatedly about the need to tear everything to the ground in order to rebuild some sort of new economic and social order (and noted that the last time was after WWII).

Since I was born in the early fifties, I can tell you from first hand experience that it took about 15 - 20 years to rebuild. There was still rationing until the middle of 1954 i.e. 9 years after the war had ended. There were bomb sites all over cities which gradually began to get cleared and built upon in the late 50s, and from what I remember of areas I knew, were mostly gone by the early 1960s. On the other hand the NHS came in and was a huge success, but the foundations of the Welfare State had been laid down during the War Time coalition building on the Beveridge Report published in 1942. No such foundations have been laid down for us to be outside the EU. Assuming A50 is invoked next March - two years to negotiate, (and probably not get far) followed by another 15 -20 years forging something new. Therefore we are looking at the mid 2030s before we can say whether TM did make a success of Brexit, (by which time she will have been long gone.)

I expect May will go rushing to Washington and toady up to Trump. He will discard her if he doesn't get anything that he wants, and it's difficult to see exactly what we can offer him.

merrymouse · 10/11/2016 16:25

So what would this shark of a businessman do? Ring us straight away or make us sweat on it and slowly start to panic about whether our relationship will stay the same?

Yes, it was notable that Merkhel seemed prepared to stand up to Trump. May sounded desperate. Taking back control...

Peregrina · 10/11/2016 16:29

I think I read somewhere that Germany exported more to the US than we did. Does that make the German hand weaker, or stronger? Confused

LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 16:34

but the foundations of the Welfare State had been laid down during the War Time coalition building on the Beveridge Report published in 1942.

Was that the one that Hitler approved of heartily (in translation) with an annotated copy found in the Fuhrerbunker ?

LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 16:39

Gove certainly has spoken repeatedly about the need to tear everything to the ground in order to rebuild some sort of new economic and social order (and noted that the last time was after WWII)

Isn't there a school of though that said WWII actually changed nothing - the same elite were left lording it over the same oppressed ?

The fact the political powers were willing to let rationing go on longer than the war speaks volumes.

There's certainly the oft-cited (by me Grin) fact of the amazing tenacity of the Norman aristocracy whose descendants still hold eye-watering amounts of England - albeit very, very anonymously ......

Of course these days, we don't have rationing, it's just the inquiry which takes longer than the war.

NotDavidTennant · 10/11/2016 16:41

I think Trump will de desperate to establish his legitimacy, so any foreign leader who's willing to come to the White House and gladhand him in front of the world's press will be warmly received to begin with.

RiceCrispieTreats · 10/11/2016 16:44

"I could see there being some shifts in EU policy which might render Brexit unnecessary."

Loosening of FOM rules for the whole of the EU is an option after the French presidential election : both Sarkozy and Juppé have said they'd seek it.

And a Le Pen presidency could lead to a collapse of the EU as a whole, as France too would Frexit, making any Brexit deal a moot point.

Peregrina · 10/11/2016 16:52

Frexit - collapse of EU. So Cameron would go down as an even bigger self-serving idiot. Broke up the UK, by accident. Broke up the EU by accident. What would he say? Oops.

LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 16:59

and gladhand him in front of the world's press

Oo err missis ! Mind bleach to aisle 4 !!!

LurkingHusband · 10/11/2016 17:00

Broke up the UK, by accident. Broke up the EU by accident

another vague memory of the "Comic Strip" portrayal of Tony Blair who just kept killing people by accident Grin ...

merrymouse · 10/11/2016 17:29

just watching Last Leg:

America now = Trumpton

Grin
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