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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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AccioMerlot · 09/11/2016 22:18

I think you're right, Peregrina - I think that the 'Don't worry - the sane side will win' message from the polls has lulled voters into a false sense of security both times.

TheBathroomSink · 09/11/2016 22:27

lala they definitely said that about one of the EC members, I'm almost sure they said it is called a 'faithless elector' and it is a known thing, but I don't remember what they said is the outcome if it happens!

TheBathroomSink · 09/11/2016 22:33

I think the number of people who now opt out of marketing and don't answer unknown calls must be having an effect on polling companies - it must be reducing the range of people they can ask questions of, and I'm not sure they are allowing enough margin for people lying to them to make them go away.

Motheroffourdragons · 09/11/2016 23:25

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

jaws5 · 09/11/2016 23:36

Absolutely appalled at that NYT video. It's even worse than I thought. I think it's also time to stop blaming liberals for "people resorting to this".

mathanxiety · 10/11/2016 00:31

So if all this is true, then you would expect at some point in the future, in the UK for there to be another backlash. Maybe not so in the US because of geography and religion - the two things that really make the UK so very different to our English speaking relatives.

I think that the vote for Trump was very much a vote against the mainstream Republican Party, which Trump appeared to be poking in the eye all through the primaries, and even in his posturing during the election campaign.

I do not think the people who voted for Trump are animated by the concerns of those who voted for Cruz in the primaries, or Rubio, or who voted for Romney in previous campaigns. Notably absent from Trump's podium last night was Paul Ryan, and when Trump hailed Reince Priebus (Republican National Committee chairman) to the microphone it looked - to me at least - as if Priebus had no idea what to expect from Trump that moment.

One of the US broadcasters covering the count made the point in the course of the evening that the only group more worried by this result than the Democrats is possibly the Republican establishment.

mathanxiety · 10/11/2016 00:34

Lala - I heard that too, about the rogue EC member. I didn't hear anything more about it.

I believe Maine and Nebraska are the only two states that have an arrangement whereby the EC votes are split proportionally. This seems much more fair than the winner takes all system.

BestIsWest · 10/11/2016 06:05

Tat's interesting Math. So do we know what the results would have been if they'd all been split proportionally?

merrymouse · 10/11/2016 06:17

It sounds to me like the real problem is with non voters

I wonder how many of these people were people who deliberately stayed away because they didn't want to vote for either candidate?

Unicornsarelovely · 10/11/2016 06:31

Also the opening hours of the polling stations seem to be 6am to 7pm, often with long queues - I don't think it's a day off work for the election and in the USA there are very few personal days. I can see it bring very tricky to get yo vote, especially where some groups are actively discouraged .

mathanxiety · 10/11/2016 06:38

I don't know, but maybe someone could make sense of this table -
uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/data.php?year=2016&datatype=national&def=1&f=0&off=0&elect=0

It's a little bit 'Hey wait a minute!' because they have Clinton in red and Trump in blue, which is not the normal colour coding.

mathanxiety · 10/11/2016 06:41

Unicorns, there was early voting in many states, if not all of them, and people can cast a postal vote too. DD2 voted by post and DD3 voted early. She was able to register at her university and vote there many weeks ago.

The real problem with voting opportunities lies in regulations some states or counties have regarding forms of ID necessary in order to register to vote.

Mistigri · 10/11/2016 07:25

Good article on what sort of leader Trump might be:

www.bradford-delong.com/2016/11/a-schwarzenegger-a-berlusconi-or-a-mussolini.html

I was feeling mildly reassured until I read this comment. Read to the end, and the bit about Trump being susceptible to manipulation by those with an agenda, including potentially the Russians. It certainly not impossible that Trump's past makes him vulnerable to blackmail.

Apologies - it's a long quote and this site is so frigging hard to use on an iPad that I'm not going to go through and make it all italics:

The issue is not what Trump wants as policy; Trump has no fixed policy, as every attempt to parse his policy statements has shown.
The issue is Trump's character, and more precisely, the nature of the (most extreme and most vocal of the) voters that put him in place.

Basically we have people (many people, not just one person) in control with all their filters down, with no egos controlling their ids. They're going to do whatever they feel like. What happens when Trump throws Clinton in prison? What does that do for the future of American politics? What happens when the mob concludes its open-season on any Muslim (or Muslim-looking) person walking down the street?

Trump has promised the mob blood. Either he delivers, or he doesn't --- and then what? Does the mob go for blood anyway?
What if he DOESN'T arrest Clinton, and every member of the alt-right boos him everywhere he goes because he "lied about arresting the witch"?
What if he DOESN'T "throw out all the Mexicans" and "make it illegal for Muslims to enter the US"?
This is a guy who gets his driving directions from the craziest, most-hate-filled sewers of twitter, and if he does not implement every one of his most loathsome policies, they are going to remind him about it every day.

THE characteristic that matters about Trump is that he stews in rage, reading Twitter at 3am, desperate to be loved by the mob. And there's a huge mass of "followers" and "supporters" who are going to use that fact to goad him, every hour of every day.
He couldn't maintain message discipline through one speech during his campaign --- how's he going to react when he presents any proposal whatsoever that is (as is inevitable) the product of compromise and the savviest alt-righters in the room start booing every single compromise in the proposal?
These are the salient facts that will inform his presidency, not minor changes in the tax rate, not even looting from the public purse.

I'm not sure comparisons with someone like Andrew Jackson are apt. Jackson was a horrible human being, and I see the point of the comparison in terms of being very afraid if you're not a white hetero christian male, but Jackson was also disciplined and controlled.
The salient feature of Trump is his absolute lack of control, and the fact that that is so easily manipulated by anyone with an agenda. Clinton was repeatedly able to manipulate it on the campaign trail; and once Trump's in power, everyone from Russia to Iran to Israel to the NRA to the KKK will be doing the exact same thing (and, in the case of at least Russia, probably very competently, with armies of apparently independent Twitter followers urging certain behaviors, likely personal blackmail, and god knows what else).
The only analog I can think of is various of the less successful Royals in history, people like Edward II, because under normal circumstances, you can't get to power as an undisciplined and erratic human being unless you inherit it.

Mistigri · 10/11/2016 07:28

For those on phones for whom the above is tl;dr, here is the short version (also stolen)

Trump may tend toward Berlusconi, but has authoritarian tendencies and has a loud constituency who will want him to be Mussolini, and worse.

TheElementsSong · 10/11/2016 07:35

That's a terrifying article Misti Sad

Everytimeref · 10/11/2016 07:35

There is also a lot of talk (including Trumps comments in his speech) that he wont last the whole four years, Pence is a even worse prospect than Trump.

merrymouse · 10/11/2016 07:43

What happens when Trump throws Clinton in prison?

Surely the law decides whether Clinton could be investigated further or go to prison? Trump isn't free to do whatever he wants just because he is president.

He might be worried about what his supporters will think, but a far larger number of people either didn't vote, didn't vote for him or only voted for him by default.

It's one thing for people not to want Clinton as president, surely quite another for them to want to live in a country where political opponents are thrown in to prison without the due process of law?

Mistigri · 10/11/2016 07:49

Surely the law decides whether Clinton could be investigated further or go to prison? Trump isn't free to do whatever he wants just because he is president.

No - and I don't think that was what the comment was saying (it was a comment - not an article subject to pre-publication editing and vetting). I think the point was an "if" not a "when" - the point was that this is a non--negligible risk.

America certainly has form for the persecution and prosecution of thought crime, and in the not too distance past for that matter.

merrymouse · 10/11/2016 07:58

I wonder how much Americans will see of this kind of thing:

Trump on Trump university.

"We're going to have professors and adjunct professors that are absolutely terrific," Donald Trump once promised potential students at the now-defunct Trump University in a marketing video. "Terrific people. Terrific brains. Successful." And to reassure them, he made a promise: "These are all people that are handpicked by me."

Reuters:

Trump has admitted he did not hand-pick instructors, but has argued the claim was marketing language not meant to be taken literally

TheBathroomSink · 10/11/2016 08:09

Surely the law decides whether Clinton could be investigated further or go to prison? Trump isn't free to do whatever he wants just because he is president.

He now gets to appoint an Attorney General, which is being speculated to be Guiliani, who sets legal policy, and he has at least one Supreme Court nomination to make.

merrymouse · 10/11/2016 08:21

I don't know enough about the legal process in America to know how comparable it is, but looking at events discussed at length on this thread, if judges are perceived to be biased, isn't the game already lost?

I assume Trump could somehow maliciously change the law to put Clinton in prison, but wouldn't that have wider reaching consequences? At that point wouldn't America be some kind of banana republic?

TheBathroomSink · 10/11/2016 08:41

At that point wouldn't America be some kind of banana republic?

Yep.

Supreme Court Judges in the US are political, though. They are chosen by Presidents and have to be confirmed by the Senate, which blocked Obama's nomination, but they aren't likely to do the same to Trump unless he chooses someone they see as too liberal.

Mistigri · 10/11/2016 08:43

I happen to think it unlikely that Clinton will end up in jail, but it's not impossible. The American legal system is far more politicised than the UK system. The General Attorney is a state level, elected post. AGs have, notably it, used their position to persecute climate scientists (Google Ken Cuccinelli, who went after the scientist Michael Mann whose "hockey stick" graph is a particular bugbear of the right).

Even assuming no catastrophic break down in the rule of law, it would still be possible to go after Clinton on manufactured charges.

InformalRoman · 10/11/2016 08:52

One of my big concerns is Trump's petulance and bullying - how he essentially says "it's my ball and I'll take it away" if he doesn't get what he wants.

www.independent.co.uk/news/people/trump-fails-to-create-promised-jobs-and-investment-in-scotland-locals-say-a6801466.html

merrymouse · 10/11/2016 09:01

Even assuming no catastrophic break down in the rule of law, it would still be possible to go after Clinton on manufactured charges.

Fair enough, but he would still have to do that in an America that, outside his core supporters, seems to be at best warey of him and at worst, absolutely opposed to him.

There is a point where his actions would align him far more with Putin than other western countries - are republicans ready for that?

On the other hand, what will Trump do if there is civil unrest?

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